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Thread: Should/will Ashley Wagner Retire after the Olympics?

  1. #46
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    If Kim wins the Olympics next year she will probably be considered the greatest skater ever. I think that is what she is aiming for. She will have the best modern day record of any skater with 2 Olympic Gold, 2 (or even 3) World titles, 3 (or 4) Grand Prix final wins. That plus her extremely high technical and artistic level of skating, the fact that her best performances (2010 Olympics, 2013 Worlds) would beat any skater in history at their best, especialy under COP, and that she came from a country with no history and did all that would make her the consenus best ever. The only one in the post World War 11 years with a better record would be Katarina Witt, but lets face it nobody considers Witt the caliber of skater Kim, Kwan, Ito, Yamaguchi, Asada, probably even Slutskaya and others are, no matter how many medals she shook her boofy and triple toed to.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    If Kim wins the Olympics next year she will probably be considered the greatest skater ever. I think that is what she is aiming for. She will have the best modern day record of any skater with 2 Olympic Gold, 2 (or even 3) World titles, 3 (or 4) Grand Prix final wins. That plus her extremely high technical and artistic level of skating, the fact that her best performances (2010 Olympics, 2013 Worlds) would beat any skater in history at their best, especialy under COP
    I don't think she's the greatest skater ever even if she wins two more Olympics Gold. Her TES is extremely high, probably higher than anyone since Midori Ito, but artistically, she's behind quite a few girls for me. I don't think she's as musical and adventurous as Carolina Kostner. I don't think she's as balletic and graceful as Mao Asada. I don't think she got me as excited and on the edge as Midori. And overall, none of her programs move me the way some of Michelle's program moved me. So no, she's A+ on the TES and A- on the PCS. When combined both TES and PCS, extremely hard to beat, but the greatest ever? Nope, not seeing it. I don't think I will be bothered to rewatch any of her performance this year.

    Had it been marked right, her CH and IN should never come near Caro's this year. Her P/E and TR should be better than Caro's. And Caro's SS is just better, flaws and all.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by noskates View Post
    The U.S has never disregarded the National results thus far

    Yes they have - Todd Eldredge!
    That wasnt disregarding National results. They gave a bye to a reigning World medalist who did not skate. Had Eldredge skated and come 4th and been placed on the team, they would have disregarded National results. That is why I said if you are a star and injured or beat up, and might not skate your best, best to WD and just ask for a bye since you will probably get it, as opposed to skating and not doing well since you wont. Perhaps a sick Weir should have WD from Nationals in 2009 rather than skated, although since the USFSA is not too fond of him, Mroz coming 2nd ahead of Lysacek probably would have meant him still not getting a bye from the USFSA anyway.

    I cant think of any instance they dropped someone off the team in favor of someone who actually competed, finished the competition, and placed below someone else. If anyone else knows of an example feel free to give it.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    I don't think she's the greatest skater ever even if she wins two more Olympics Gold.
    Well obviously individuals will have their own opinions. However my comment was that I am pretty sure most people will think of her as the greatest ever if she wins her 2nd Olympic Gold, even if you personally dont (I think Ito is the greatest ever for instance but I know few think that), and I think she believes that way too, and hence was agreeing with the previous poster that she is indeed mostly staying in to cement her place in history further. Of the skaters you mentioned there is nobody that will ever consider Kostner or Asada close to the best ever as neither has the dominance, impact, or competitive record to even come close, so you might as well compare Kim to other people who could actually be legitimately argued as that against her like Kwan, Ito, Lynn, Yamaguchi, etc...and how she falls short to them.

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    Yuna is already the best ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    I don't think she's the greatest skater ever even if she wins two more Olympics Gold. Her TES is extremely high, probably higher than anyone since Midori Ito, but artistically, she's behind quite a few girls for me. I don't think she's as musical and adventurous as Carolina Kostner. I don't think she's as balletic and graceful as Mao Asada. I don't think she got me as excited and on the edge as Midori. And overall, none of her programs move me the way some of Michelle's program moved me. So no, she's A+ on the TES and A- on the PCS. When combined both TES and PCS, extremely hard to beat, but the greatest ever? Nope, not seeing it. I don't think I will be bothered to rewatch any of her performance this year.

    Had it been marked right, her CH and IN should never come near Caro's this year. Her P/E and TR should be better than Caro's. And Caro's SS is just better, flaws and all.
    I don't think "greatest ever" means "perfect in every single way" (better jumper than Midori Ito, more balletic than Mao Asada, more moving than Michelle Kwan, etc.). For Yuna to be considered the greatest ever in general, the bar is a bit lower and actually achievable. Michael Jordan's stats, for example, is beaten in certain respects by several basketball players. Nevertheless, in the history of basketball he is the "greatest ever" by acclamation.

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    Another thing is Mao used to be balletic and graceful when she first emerged and through the 2005-2008 period. Then she went to Tarasova and the rest is history (she isnt with her anymore thank goodness, but she never fully recovered really). She has never been competitive with Kim in PCS since, and she is now being dusted by Kostner in them as well. Heck earlier this year Wagner was even challenging her in PCS, and that is something that would have never happened once upon a time.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    really gimble, i was being silly. Yuna is not greedy, she is very ambitious. She sees a spot in history bigger than what she has. She is the penultimate CoP skater. She doesn't suffer edge calls or urs. She is a clean jumper good at the other requirements and she wins under current rules. She is a competitor. She carefully surveyed the field while taking time off and correctly sees she at her best with her jump arsenal, experience and cool, collected skating could grab another gold. Yuna Kim 2 x gold medalist. How many Olympians, esp skaters can say that? Greatest of all time will be her moniker and who will do it again?
    This may be less of a coronation than last time. Really, she will be held up and overscored in PCS. I think she left Asada in the dust by 30 points last Olympics despite great skating, 3 triple axels. I found it really unfair scoring. As I said in the pre-worlds thread, if she still has the difficult, oh so clean jumps, she really cannot be beaten unless she has a fluke fall on her combination. World's was impressive despite an unappealing SP. She still won. Judges love her. I'd bet money on her now. I am hoping Caro is so cleanly magnificent but how likely is that at her 3rd ? Olympics. Mao can't do the pressure anymore. Only Grace Gold has the jumps, speed, ice coverage, great body, ice princess look and well, we all know what she is up against. Maybe in 4 years. Yuna is gonna repeat if at this level, barring injuries. She won 2013 worlds. The great oz has spoken.

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    I think that Ashley knows she needs to upgrade her technical content to have a shot at medaling in Sochi and at Worlds. She seems ambitious and extremely invested in her results when she speaks in interviews--it used to seem like she wanted to be successful too badly, causing her to have meltdowns at key moments like the 2010 Nationals SP--so I'd guess she'll do anything she can to make that happen. I think she and John Nicks were focusing in building up her international reputation this year with consistent excellence. It worked for her. She did very well on the Grand Prix and her consistency internationally is probably what caused American judges to hold her up at Nationals even though her free skate was a total mess.

    The reality, as Timothy Goebel said in an interview, is that it was always unlikely that Ashley was going to pull out the technical goods for the first time at Nationals or Worlds. Those are two pressure packed events and the stakes are very high. Either she was going to chicken out and not do the content at all or she was probably going to make a mistake when executing it. It's too much to ask that a skater pull out a difficult element they haven't done all season with aplomb when it counts most. I'm happy she went for the 2A-3T in her program in London, but it was far from ideal. She needs to spend the summer working on her 3-3 combination (I think she was planning on 3F-3T in the SP) and her 2A-3T combination. I hope she and John Nicks decide to nix the consistency on the Grand Prix circuit in favor of trying out the content she's going to need in the championship part of next season. As Goebel said, better to take the hit at Skate America than at Nationals or at the Olympics. At this point, it is much more important for her to work the kinks out of her programs and get comfortable doing the difficult elements she needs to include to be competitive at the highest level. If she's able to put together a solid 3-3 for the short and put her 2A-3T in the long, I think she'll be a medal contender in Sochi and in Saitama. If she doesn't, she's going to have a very VERY hard time given the depth of the international field and the ground she's already losing to Gracie.

    I see no reason for Ashley to retire as long as she's enjoying what she's doing and has a chance of improving. Whether that comes after next season or sometime between Sochi and 2018 is anyone's guess.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    If Kim wins the Olympics next year she will probably be considered the greatest skater ever. I think that is what she is aiming for. She will have the best modern day record of any skater with 2 Olympic Gold, 2 (or even 3) World titles, 3 (or 4) Grand Prix final wins. That plus her extremely high technical and artistic level of skating, the fact that her best performances (2010 Olympics, 2013 Worlds) would beat any skater in history at their best, especialy under COP, and that she came from a country with no history and did all that would make her the consenus best ever. The only one in the post World War 11 years with a better record would be Katarina Witt, but lets face it nobody considers Witt the caliber of skater Kim, Kwan, Ito, Yamaguchi, Asada, probably even Slutskaya and others are, no matter how many medals she shook her boofy and triple toed to.
    Yes you're right, she will be because Michelle Kwan never won an Olympic gold medal whereas Yuna would have two which means a lot more than a golden medal at Worlds.
    It's sad she won't be at WTT though...

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krislite View Post
    I don't think "greatest ever" means "perfect in every single way" (better jumper than Midori Ito, more balletic than Mao Asada, more moving than Michelle Kwan, etc.). For Yuna to be considered the greatest ever in general, the bar is a bit lower and actually achievable. Michael Jordan's stats, for example, is beaten in certain respects by several basketball players. Nevertheless, in the history of basketball he is the "greatest ever" by acclamation.
    This is what I was thinking after reading Flattfan's reasons, which are valid criticisms, but there is no doubt in my mind that Yuna is one of the greatest. (Even if she doesn't win a second gold.) Certainly, you could point out a lot of skaters that did a lot of things better than Michelle Kwan or Midori Ito and (definitely) Katarina Witt. But those things are still "great". Isn't figure skating all about going with what you DO have and using it to advantage against opponents who might do other things better?

    P.S. Yuna, Greatest Skater Ever, I don't know. It's too hard to compare through the ages.

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    LOL lots of skaters did lots of things better than Katarina Witt. She was amazing competitor and an amazing star, but wow when one looks at her skating, even for the era she was in, how she pulled that title count off boggles the mind. She was great at intimidating and psyching her opponents out though with her cool demeanor, sometimes watching them by the boards, and just her unflappable presence; she often could rise and pull performances out of nowhere when needed (eg- 1987 Worlds), and of course with years of being on top gained judging favor as well.

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    I have to say, though, that when I watch Yuna, especially the height and travel of her jumps, her footwork, and okay maybe not so much her spins, but just about every other minute during her programs -- I kind of DO get that "da*n, she's the best EVER" feeling. Program after program she just looks so effortless at it all, and the technical goods are so strong, and she can also project a mood well, too (Lark, her two Oly programs had a strong but different flavor to them).

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by rallycairn View Post
    I have to say, though, that when I watch Yuna, especially the height and travel of her jumps, her footwork, and okay maybe not so much her spins, but just about every other minute during her programs -- I kind of DO get that "da*n, she's the best EVER" feeling. Program after program she just looks so effortless at it all, and the technical goods are so strong, and she can also project a mood well, too (Lark, her two Oly programs had a strong but different flavor to them).
    I agree. It's her technical ease that makes everything else look effortless. Back to Ashley, I will say she will probably always be a skater who has to put a lot of effort into her jumps and look it. Technically she may improve (again, Caro has, so who knows) and that will help greatly. In fact, I think Kim's greatest weapon is showing how having great TES helps a lot in PCS as well. Ashley's components will go up if/once she trains the heck out of those second triple toes.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Well obviously individuals will have their own opinions. However my comment was that I am pretty sure most people will think of her as the greatest ever if she wins her 2nd Olympic Gold, even if you personally dont (I think Ito is the greatest ever for instance but I know few think that), and I think she believes that way too, and hence was agreeing with the previous poster that she is indeed mostly staying in to cement her place in history further. Of the skaters you mentioned there is nobody that will ever consider Kostner or Asada close to the best ever as neither has the dominance, impact, or competitive record to even come close, so you might as well compare Kim to other people who could actually be legitimately argued as that against her like Kwan, Ito, Lynn, Yamaguchi, etc...and how she falls short to them.
    Ok Kim Yuna the Queen is without question one of the greatest. One of them. But the way you dismiss Asada's acomplishments is wrong. She has two world championships, 3 Grand Prix finals 3 Four Continent titles and olympic silver medal.

    Fifth woman in history to land the triple axel jump in international competition.
    Second woman to break the 200-point barrier in international competition.
    Third Japanese female figure skater to win an Olympic medal.
    First woman to land the triple axel in a short program at the Winter Olympics.
    First woman to land two triple axel jumps in the same program.
    First woman to land three triple axel jumps in one competition.
    First woman to land the triple axel in junior international competition.
    First woman to attempt a triple-triple-triple combination.
    First woman to achieve a Level 4 step sequence.
    First figure skater from Asia to win multiple world championshi

    I got those from wikepedia if those highlights dont make you great than I dont know what great is

    By the way the argument could be made that Kim is great wich she is without putting the acomplishments of Asada and Kostner.

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