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Thread: Figure skating is dying, and judges can't prop it up

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenaj View Post
    No offense to SK, but all this means is that Yu Na is a big fish in a small pond. It has no meaning for the future of figure skating.
    Actually Im not disputing that. In that case either skating has never been popular in SK. The alleged "decline" in SK even with YNK in the game, just does not make sense.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenaj View Post
    No offense to SK, but all this means is that Yu Na is a big fish in a small pond. It has no meaning for the future of figure skating.
    No offense to you, but you're boxing yourself into a corner. With a population of 50 million, South Korea is a pretty substantial pond. Larger than California. Of the same order of magnitude as the major European countries. Do France, Italy, the UK, Germany, etc. have no meaning for the future of skating? I guess if you live in Sweden, you shouldn't even bother watching, because with a population of 9 million, you are not even a comma in the meaning of the future of figure skating. Canada with 20-some-odd million might count for a bit more, but try not to give yourselves pretensions, willya?

    If we take the Philosophy of Jenaj to its logical conclusions, then even Americans are merely suffering from a temporary delusion that they count; the only countries that should or will matter, because they are Big Ponds, are China and India.

    Thank you, jenaj, for clearing that little matter up.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by suzukifan27 View Post
    You're absolutely right. Yuna ubers used to be atrocious on various forums. They're now gone. I don't even think South Korean media hyped this event that much. It is dying in South Korea as well. Japan might be the next. China? Never popular there.
    I disagree and agree. Those Yuna ubers are absolutely back and South Korean media annoyingly hyped this event (at least after Yuna's almost perfect SP). But true, it is dying because Yuna's retirement is coming closer. Most of them seem to love figure skating with Yuna and not FS itself. I don't think they would keep watching it when they don't have Yuna (or at least another potential medalist) on the ice.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by sather View Post
    I disagree and agree. Those Yuna ubers are absolutely back and South Korean media annoyingly hyped this event (at least after Yuna's almost perfect SP). But true, it is dying because Yuna's retirement is coming closer. Most of them seem to love figure skating with Yuna and not FS itself. I don't think they would keep watching it when they don't have Yuna (or at least another potential medalist) on the ice.
    *Sigh* This is the kind of post for which the "rolleyes" icon was made. I'll respond to it laundrylist-style, because it doesn't deserve much more:

    -with exactly 42 posts and a membership extending back to all of December 2012, why do you believe you have the hoary standing to make grand pronouncements in blanket fashion about a very large number of other members with whom you are not familiar?

    -is your demonstrated history of involvement on this forum so distinguished, either in quantity or quality, that it should be obvious to the rest of us that you love "FS itself", and do not have your own agenda or preferences?

    -do you have an intimate familiarity with Korean society and the figure-skating community there? Are you some kind of scholar who has done field work on the subject, or a professional pollster who has systematically canvassed views from the target group? Or are you merely pulling generalized opinions out of various orifices?

    -As per another member's excellent comments (Lilith, I think), do you not believe in dealing in individuals rather than in the propaganda predilection for group accusations? If you disagree with this or that particular post or poster, more power to you if you say so in a reasoned and vigorous manner. I do not appreciate, however, your over-reaching screeds, in fact, I find them offensive, because I am a fan of Yuna. Just as, I believe, Mao fans and Carolina fans or the fans of any skater would not appreciate such tactics in their own cases.

    -Perhaps you ought to consider what it means to be part of a community, and the minimum level of courtesy that it entails.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robeye View Post
    *Sigh* This is the kind of post for which the "rolleyes" icon was made. I'll respond to it laundrylist-style, because it doesn't deserve much more:

    -with exactly 42 posts and a membership extending back to all of December 2012, why do you believe you have the hoary standing to make grand pronouncements in blanket fashion about a very large number of other members with whom you are not familiar?

    -is your demonstrated history of involvement on this forum so distinguished, either in quantity or quality, that it should be obvious to the rest of us that you love "FS itself", and do not have your own agenda or preferences?

    -do you have an intimate familiarity with Korean society and the figure-skating community there? Are you some kind of scholar who has done field work on the subject, or a professional pollster who has systematically canvassed views from the target group? Or are you merely pulling generalized opinions out of various orifices?

    -As per another member's excellent comments (Lilith, I think), do you not believe in dealing in individuals rather than in the propaganda predliction for group accusations? If you disagree with this or that particular post or poster, more power to you if you say so in a reasoned and vigorous manner. I do not appreciate, however, your over-reaching screeds, in fact, I find them offensive, because I am a fan of Yuna. Just as, I believe, Mao fans and Carolina fans or the fans of any skater would not appreciate such tactics in their own cases.

    -Perhaps you ought to consider what it means to be part of a community, and the minimum level of courtesy that it entails.
    I have no idea which part of my post made you this angry(or maybe not angry but at least your post sounds quite offensive). I definitely should've explained better and I know this is a stupid excuse but for me it takes a lot of time to write in English and I sound like an idiot when I try to make a longer statement (wow... now I really sound like one ) but anyway, sorry for that.


    1) If you're referring to my join date to accuse me for not knowing much about this sport or my short experience in this community, I find it funny because although I recently became a member of GS but it doesn't mean I started watching FS at that point nor this is the only community that I participated in. And to clarify, I didn't meant people here in GS by 'most of them' if that's what made you angry.

    2) I accept that my choice of word was not deliberate enough so I apologize. However it is true that a lot of people around me in Korea who even went for Yu-na's ice shows didn't have any interest on other skaters and even said 'there's no point in watching other skaters' programs because Yu-na is superior than any other.' In major news cites and internet communities, I saw many replies claiming that Katarina Witt is nothing compared to Yu-na. Again, I didn't want to sound like 'everyone except me doesn't love FS itself'. What I wanted to say is that the popularity of this sport in Korea is quite inflated in the current situation.

    3) I don't understand what you mean by 'an intimate familiarity with Korean society and the figure-skating community' because... yes I'm a Korean citizen and I've been a member of a few major figure skating fan cites if that's what you mean. and no, I'm not academically studying on 'the future of FS in Korea' because I don't think I have to and I believe my idea is just a personal prediction which might be wrong. (and I hope it's wrong)

    4) Good, because I'm a fan of Yuna too Sorry if I offended you. I'm sure you are one of those people who would keep watching Korean FS even after Yuna's gone. But the problem is what I saw during this Worlds is a broadcasting company who skipped a couple of skaters to replay Yuna's SP and commentators who kept trashing other top skaters so that even my father who knows nothing about this sport asked me 'Are those skaters as terrible as they sound? According to those commentators, they cannot be the world class skaters but they get good scores. It's strange'

    5) I hope this post doesn't make any trouble.

  6. #51
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    I agree with you sather. I expect YuNa ubers to be back in full force by Sochi I also think the prospect of FS prospering in Korea post-Yuna is not that good. It may get better as the Korean government pushes for a successful Pyeongchang Olympics but Koreans will only start to rally behind the next crop of skaters if they start to podium consistently. Even then, it's hard to see anyone else becoming the superstar that YuNa is and carrying FS with them.

    Of course, I do hope I'm wrong about all of this

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by sather View Post
    I have no idea which part of my post made you this angry(or maybe not angry but at least your post sounds quite offensive). I definitely should've explained better and I know this is a stupid excuse but for me it takes a lot of time to write in English and I sound like an idiot when I try to make a longer statement (wow... now I really sound like one ) but anyway, sorry for that.


    1) If you're referring to my join date to accuse me for not knowing much about this sport or my short experience in this community, I find it funny because although I recently became a member of GS but it doesn't mean I started watching FS at that point nor this is the only community that I participated in. And to clarify, I didn't meant people here in GS by 'most of them' if that's what made you angry.

    2) I accept that my choice of word was not deliberate enough so I apologize. However it is true that a lot of people around me in Korea who even went for Yu-na's ice shows didn't have any interest on other skaters and even said 'there's no point in watching other skaters' programs because Yu-na is superior than any other.' In major news cites and internet communities, I saw many replies claiming that Katarina Witt is nothing compared to Yu-na. Again, I didn't want to sound like 'everyone except me doesn't love FS itself'. What I wanted to say is that the popularity of this sport in Korea is quite inflated in the current situation.

    3) I don't understand what you mean by 'an intimate familiarity with Korean society and the figure-skating community' because... yes I'm a Korean citizen and I've been a member of a few major figure skating fan cites if that's what you mean. and no, I'm not academically studying on 'the future of FS in Korea' because I don't think I have to and I believe my idea is just a personal prediction which might be wrong. (and I hope it's wrong)

    4) Good, because I'm a fan of Yuna too Sorry if I offended you. I'm sure you are one of those people who would keep watching Korean FS even after Yuna's gone. But the problem is what I saw during this Worlds is a broadcasting company who skipped a couple of skaters to replay Yuna's SP and commentators who kept trashing other top skaters so that even my father who knows nothing about this sport asked me 'Are those skaters as terrible as they sound? According to those commentators, they cannot be the world class skaters but they get good scores. It's strange'

    5) I hope this post doesn't make any trouble.
    OK, Sather, perhaps there was some miscommunication here, and maybe partly due, as you say, to my not fully understanding what you were intending to say. Perhaps, too, I have become just a bit snappish because of a few other posters (some of whom do not have the excuse of language limitations), and so I, too, apologize, if I vented at you unfairly.

    I understand better some of the points you made, and I don't want to make a huge to-do about this, but I will offer a couple of my own comments:

    -I've spent a lot of time overseas, including Korea, Japan, some European countries. I realize that there are many people who are only interested in watching the star of the day. But I would suggest that I have seen this phenomenon not only in some of Yuna's admirers or Korean viewers of skating, but in all countries and in all sports that I personally have had any experience with. I think it's true in the US, where I believe the sharp drop-off in interest and viewership is at least in significant measure due to the lack of an American Yuna in recent years. It's also true, however, in other sports both major and minor, such as baseball, football, basketball, and golf.

    -It could be the case that it was relatively more true for Yuna's fans in South Korea; but I would ascribe that to the fact that figure skating is still a relatively new sport to Koreans, who are dealing with a superstar in what was almost a wholly unfamiliar activity for most of them. Because of Yuna's influence, however, I know for a fact that the number of knowledgeable fans of figure skating in that country has grown and continues to grow. Sure, when Yuna passes from the scene, the number of eyeballs may shrink sharply, but this is, in my experience, an inevitable and universal phenomenon. So what you say is, I argue, far less true now than it was, say, three years ago, and that development ought not to get lost in a rush to sound-bite judgment.

    -All that said, my own approach to online activities is this: treat each person as an individual, unless he/she gives clear evidence that he/she is acting in concert and collusion with others as a group. Some variation of the Golden Rule has always seemed to me both a congenial and a sensible policy on the internet.

  8. #53
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    I think we saw a similar phenomenon in the US. There were a lot of fans who started watching in the 1990s and who became fans of skating and considered Michelle Kwan their favorite or one of their favorite skaters, and many continue to be fans after Kwan's retirement.

    And then there were also a lot of people who became fans of Michelle Kwan but weren't particular interested in skating on its own terms, except as an opportunity to watch Michelle. So when she was gone they lost interest.

    The same thing may happen in Korea.

    But of all the little girls (and some boys) who were fans of the stars enough to start skating themselves, a decade later some of them may go on to international success themselves. I would expect a lull in Korean results after Yuna Kim retires for good, but I would also expect a resurgence a few years later on.

    Japanese skating hardly died after Midori Ito (and Yuka Sato) retired.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robeye View Post
    Because of Yuna's influence, however, I know for a fact that the number of knowledgeable fans of figure skating in that country has grown and continues to grow. Sure, when Yuna passes from the scene, the number of eyeballs may shrink sharply, but this is, in my experience, an inevitable and universal phenomenon. So what you say is, I argue, far less true now than it was, say, three years ago, and that development ought not to get lost in a rush to sound-bite judgment.
    This is so true. I sometimes visit Korean figure skating sites, and the level of technical knowledge is getting really quite impressive. There are also noticeably growing contingent of fans of other skaters... like Kaetlyn Osmond.. with some already calling her the "True Angel on Ice".

    I think much of sather's frustration comes from the crappy Korean journalism and media, and I am the first to admit that they are mostly junk. But even that is not unique to Korea.... as I am sure Sather would know from reading Japanese media for example (I noticed that you even kindly translated Japanese article on Mao in your earlier post). If you think uber wars in these English forums are messy, boy, you should see some of the posts made in Japanese 2Ch board. But I diagress,

    I think figure skating will remain very strong and popular in Asia, and hope that the sport has a global resurgence, because it is really a beautiful sport.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    I think we saw a similar phenomenon in the US. There were a lot of fans who started watching in the 1990s and who became fans of skating and considered Michelle Kwan their favorite or one of their favorite skaters, and many continue to be fans after Kwan's retirement.

    And then there were also a lot of people who became fans of Michelle Kwan but weren't particular interested in skating on its own terms, except as an opportunity to watch Michelle. So when she was gone they lost interest.

    The same thing may happen in Korea.

    But of all the little girls (and some boys) who were fans of the stars enough to start skating themselves, a decade later some of them may go on to international success themselves. I would expect a lull in Korean results after Yuna Kim retires for good, but I would also expect a resurgence a few years later on.

    Japanese skating hardly died after Midori Ito (and Yuka Sato) retired.
    I tend to agree with your views. What the picture looks like is often dependent on the timescale on which one chooses to view it. In the immediate aftermath of a Yuna retirement, the scene could be very morose; but in five years time, the seeds planted and the youthful enthusiasms cultivated during the Yuna era could very well bear fruit.

    And while the fan base necessarily folllows the rhythms of the outlook for skaters, I'm fairly certain that a base has been established, and that it will never revert back completely to what it was before.

    As you indicate, this type of evolution is not unprecedented.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robeye View Post
    I tend to agree with your views. What the picture looks like is often dependent on the timescale on which one chooses to view it. In the immediate aftermath of a Yuna retirement, the scene could be very morose; but in five years time, the seeds planted and the youthful enthusiasms cultivated during the Yuna era could very well bear fruit.

    And while the fan base necessarily folllows the rhythms of the outlook for skaters, I'm fairly certain that a base has been established, and that it will never revert back completely to what it was before.

    As you indicate, this type of evolution is not unprecedented.
    Also, the fact that Korea will get the 2018 Winter Games will keep interest up, I suspect. I think that people who love beauty and artistry in a sport but just never knew much about skating before will remain loyal to the sport even after YuNa retires. These fans will appreciate skaters from other countries as well as from Korea, just as I get excited about skaters such as YuNa even though I'm an American. I like to think that skating has gained a permanent foothold over there, as it has done in Japan and China at different points in the last few decades.

    Remember, Korea is a winter country. It's not some year-round tropical paradise that has one indoor rink, the way a place such as Malaysia or the Philippines (or even Australia) is. So winter sports are a natural fit with Korean fans and are likely to draw in more viewers in the future.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by YunaBliss View Post
    This is so true. I sometimes visit Korean figure skating sites, and the level of technical knowledge is getting really quite impressive. There are also noticeably growing contingent of fans of other skaters... like Kaetlyn Osmond.. with some already calling her the "True Angel on Ice".

    I think much of sather's frustration comes from the crappy Korean journalism and media, and I am the first to admit that they are mostly junk. But even that is not unique to Korea.... as I am sure Sather would know from reading Japanese media for example (I noticed that you even kindly translated Japanese article on Mao in your earlier post). If you think uber wars in these English forums are messy, boy, you should see some of the posts made in Japanese 2Ch board. But I diagress,

    I think figure skating will remain very strong and popular in Asia, and hope that the sport has a global resurgence, because it is really a beautiful sport.
    Korean figure skating fan sites have changed a lot, especially in a quite twisted way. As their technical knowledge gets improved, they became harsher and harsher on other skaters. They always see Yuna as a victim of ISU judging system, Japanese federation, IMG sports agency and etc, which made them overly protective. It's great that they liked Kaetlyn because to me, they seem to have very particular taste when it comes to foreign skaters. I was once almost terrorized for adoring a male skater who belonged to IMG sports so... I prefer not to mention other foreign skaters in Korean sites. (it's a long story...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Robeye
    I tend to agree with your views. What the picture looks like is often dependent on the timescale on which one chooses to view it. In the immediate aftermath of a Yuna retirement, the scene could be very morose; but in five years time, the seeds planted and the youthful enthusiasms cultivated during the Yuna era could very well bear fruit.
    I know it might sound strange, but to be honest, I'm waiting for the post-Yuna era to come. Then, this whole national madness would fade away and leave rather generous figure skating fans who are willing to watch other skaters even though there are not as perfect as Yuna. I remember what Korean figure skating community looked like until right before the pre-Olympic season while Yuna was becoming popular after her senior debut. Media didn't cover her that much but at least they did not act like a fanatic. Figure skating fans including me who were introduced to this sport by Yuna were still minorities in Korea but we appreciated the joy this new sport had brought us.

    I don't want to hear how much most of skaters are inferior to Yuna anymore. I'd rather prefer messy uber wars we have here or somewhere else because there isn't any in Korea. There can't be because a certain type of Yuna fans pretty much dominate this community and do not allow any other different opinions.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    Also, the fact that Korea will get the 2018 Winter Games will keep interest up, I suspect. I think that people who love beauty and artistry in a sport but just never knew much about skating before will remain loyal to the sport even after YuNa retires. These fans will appreciate skaters from other countries as well as from Korea, just as I get excited about skaters such as YuNa even though I'm an American. I like to think that skating has gained a permanent foothold over there, as it has done in Japan and China at different points in the last few decades.

    Remember, Korea is a winter country. It's not some year-round tropical paradise that has one indoor rink, the way a place such as Malaysia or the Philippines (or even Australia) is. So winter sports are a natural fit with Korean fans and are likely to draw in more viewers in the future.
    You may very well be right, Olympia. Given the 2018 Olympics, it would not surprise me to see the various Korean authorities get off their asses and actually support the athletes who are bringing them national pride and prestige. If they do this well, then Yuna's legacy for Korean figure skating might be permanent. Wouldn't that be great to see.

  14. #59
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    I believe that I may be the hoariest person on Golden Skate, now that GrGranny and Joesitz have retired from active posting.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by sather View Post
    I know it might sound strange, but to be honest, I'm waiting for the post-Yuna era to come. Then, this whole national madness would fade away and leave rather generous figure skating fans who are willing to watch other skaters even though there are not as perfect as Yuna. I remember what Korean figure skating community looked like until right before the pre-Olympic season while Yuna was becoming popular after her senior debut. Media didn't cover her that much but at least they did not act like a fanatic. .
    Dude/Dudette, you are not making much sense to me. A sports fan wants to see greatness, not mediocrity. This applies in any sport. That is how a sport grows. If you have some grudge against extreme Yuna fans and fanatical media in Korea, why don't you take it against them in Korean sites, as you proclaim yourself to be Korean.

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