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Thread: Figure skating is dying, and judges can't prop it up

  1. #76
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    ^ I think what analysis like this shows is that the "problem" -- if problem it is, that sometimes the program that is most appealing to the audience will not win against a program that one way or another accrues more points -- cannot be fixed (just like the construction of this sentence ).

    Skating has decided to go with add-up-the-points. For better or for worse (for richer or poorer).

  2. #77
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    Even under 6.0, sometimes the program that is most appealing to the audience will not win against a program that for one reason or another is more appealing to a majority of the judges.

    As long as those reasons are based on the established judging criteria (which in 6.0 days were largely unwritten) and consideration of skating content and quality/technique, then the results are justifiable, and likely moreso than results based on audience appeal.

  3. #78
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    ^ But here's the difference. Under 6.0, if I, as an audience member, disagreed with the outcome, I could feel like I am smarter that the judges and they got it wrong.

    Now, if I disagree, that means that I am dumber than the judges, they got it right and I am an idiot.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by willywonka View Post
    If figure skating is dying, just get the coffin ready. Amen.
    Yeah, take it off life support and let it, at least, die with a semblance of dignity. Then let it rise form the ashes in a new form, all fresh and new and wonderful.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by louisa05 View Post
    I think the headline, which the thread title came from, was intended as a bit of a pun as the judges are perceived to have "propped up" skaters at Worlds.
    Sorry, I missed that!!! lmao Very clever. Relieved that some others seemed to have missed it to.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I believe that I may be the hoariest person on Golden Skate, now that GrGranny and Joesitz have retired from active posting.
    well, just as long as you aren't the whoriest. I might could give you a run for your money, but unless it lots of money, this "kid" ain't gonna admit he is hoarier than you.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icey View Post
    Yeah, take it off life support and let it, at least, die with a semblance of dignity. Then let it rise form the ashes in a new form, all fresh and new and wonderful.
    I think we need to be careful what we wish for. What with all the zombies and vampires we see in movies and television, perhaps we need to remind ourselves that, sometimes, when things die, they stay dead.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    So if we want falls to be similarly costly at the highest levels, where the most people are watching and the most people care strongly, then the system needs to be redesigned to make the penalties larger at levels where the overall scores are highest.
    Exactly. Why would it be so difficult in competitions--and particularly international competitions--to change the fall penalty?
    -1 at intermediate or lower levels. No change.
    -2 at novice competitions
    -3 at junior competitions
    -4 at senior competitions
    This would be easily implementable and more acceptable to the vast majority of audience both casual and die-hard skating fans. Mistakes need commensurate penalties. Junior and particularly senior skaters need to work harder to stand up. If that means sticking with skills they can actually do without falling, so be it.
    However, no system overhaul would be complete without addressing the problems with GOE and also the entire PCS/component concept.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsisjiejie View Post
    Exactly. Why would it be so difficult in competitions--and particularly international competitions--to change the fall penalty?
    -1 at intermediate or lower levels. No change.
    -2 at novice competitions
    -3 at junior competitions
    -4 at senior competitions
    This would be easily implementable and more acceptable to the vast majority of audience both casual and die-hard skating fans. Mistakes need commensurate penalties. Junior and particularly senior skaters need to work harder to stand up. If that means sticking with skills they can actually do without falling, so be it.
    However, no system overhaul would be complete without addressing the problems with GOE and also the entire PCS/component concept.
    I think that this would result in all the skaters attempting easy programs (using the 2011 Kostner strategy), no more big tricks, less risk and excitement... Is this really what we want?

  10. #85
    Outdated Old Dinosaur
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    I think the concept of risk/reward is a good one... but programs are not being scored that way.

    There should be a severe penalty for non-completion of elements that are attempted, and I don't think "fully rotated, but a fall on the landing" should qualify as successful completion of the element.

    Likewise, I don't think anything less than perfection should merit +3 GOE.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by TontoK View Post
    Likewise, I don't think anything less than perfection should merit +3 GOE.
    The problem is, who's going to define "perfection" in this case?

  12. #87
    Custom Title Kitt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    The problem is, who's going to define "perfection" in this case?
    Not falling would be a good start.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    The problem is, who's going to define "perfection" in this case?
    Have you ever watched a televised diving competition? The diver performs, the commentators will say, "It was a good dive. Not great. A little heavy on the entry, but the takeoff was good. It was pretty in the air. Should score 7 to 7.5." And the scores will come up, and they will be in the range of 7 to 7.5.

    Different sport, I know, but the point is that a knowledgeable person can look at one element and make an accurate assessment of what the score for that element should be, based on its deviation from perfection.

    I cannot believe that experienced and trained figure skating judges, who have served for years before they reach a level of judging a WC or Olympics, cannot do the same thing. "Good strong takeoff from a proper edge. Excellent height to the jump and fully rotated. Rotation in the air slightly crooked. A bit wobbly on the landing and average run-out. Base value."

    Instead it seems we get, "He completed a quad without falling on his backside. GOE +3"

  14. #89
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    Skating like Gymnastics and to the point various snowboarding events are hard to understand for the average person. Count the revolutions is not enough as certain tricks are worth more. Understanding spins, edging, positions are all hard to comprehend. We will only stop the whining when our favourite or the one we think deserved to win wins. And us all agreeing on that is likely to happens well sky fly and certain posters becoming buds - it is not likely to happen. Hopefully the attitudes on this board are not pervading outside otherwise skating is going to be dead as dead can be. It is hard to understand the scoring system to the ave person let alone us. maybe celarly labelling what are skating skills what is choreography etc would help. But as we cannot agree and the commenttor cannot agree how can we expect the average non skating fan understand.
    I do fear if we are powerful enough on this board that our whining may kill skating and that would be a shame. A real shame...

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    I do fear if we are powerful enough on this board that our whining may kill skating and that would be a shame. A real shame...
    Do you know what would also kill skating? Having normal discussions about sport--many of which stem from genuine interest and concern for the sport--continually dismissed as "whining."

    Soccer/football is the most popular sport in the world, and its immense popularity has not suffered from the reams of passionate (and even angry and irrational) discussion and debate associated with the sport (more than figure skating will ever know), even if the topics are as divisive as diving, match-fixing or bad refereeing.

    In fact, the way we truly know a sport is dead is when no fans even bother to discuss or debate the results.

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