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Thread: Figure skating is dying, and judges can't prop it up

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by TontoK View Post
    I cannot believe that experienced and trained figure skating judges, who have served for years before they reach a level of judging a WC or Olympics, cannot do the same thing.
    Well, they've only been grading elements on a scale of -3 to +3 for ten years at most. Which should be enough to establish their standards. But the official guidelines have changed at least once during that time, and I think there have been some unofficial recalibrations as well -- we've certainly seen more +3s in the last 3-4 years than in the previous 6.

    Instead it seems we get, "He completed a quad without falling on his backside. GOE +3"
    As mentioned, there have been relatively few +3s given over the years, although more of them recently.

    The current guidelines for +3 are 6 bullet points. Can you point to any quads that have ever received +3 GOE without clearly meeting at least a few of those positive criteria beyond "didn't fall on his backside," even if we can't identify as many as six?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    I do fear if we are powerful enough on this board that our whining may kill skating and that would be a shame. A real shame...
    Yeah, I also wish the discussions -- including discussions of where we disagree with the rules or a given judging panel's application of the rules -- would take a more positive, enthusiastic tone.

    Maybe whining and manufactured outrage are fun. Maybe it's all done with a smile that doesn't come across online. I just wish more of the enjoyment would come through.

  2. #92
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    I am wondering in part, if the scoring system great if it works to your favour or your favorite skater. As a "judge" could see depending on what scoring system you use how you could get different results.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Maybe whining and manufactured outrage are fun.
    Quite the opposite, IMHO. It is enervating and depressing.

    When we attend a sporting event, or watch on TV or the Internet, we should leave the arena talking about the performances of the athletes. If instead, time after time, we exit the arena talking about the refereeing, that sport is in trouble.

  4. #94
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    In the short run, things seem fine...but if TPTB don't wake up soon - skating may find itself in an irrecoverable tailspin.

    There will be another SLC-level scandal at the Olympics and that will pretty much do it right there. (Just imagine if Chan is gifted the title again after multiple falls in Sochi)

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.D. View Post
    In the short run, things seem fine...but if TPTB don't wake up soon - skating may find itself in an irrecoverable tailspin.

    There will be another SLC-level scandal at the Olympics and that will pretty much do it right there. (Just imagine if Chan is gifted the title again after multiple falls in Sochi)
    You'd think they'd be more careful in Sochi, no? It's relatively easy to adjust by being stricter on the PCS and GOE with sloppy performances, as they should be anyways.

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    I predict the whole Worlds fiasco will have the judges being very very careful how they mark Chan next season, and especialy at the Games. I dont think he will win the gold. He will most likely win the bronze or 4th place, and if he skates poorly could even be lower than that. The scandal has rung so loud that I am sure the IOC has even heard about it and will give some harsh warning to the ISU to watch themselves and how figure skating goes down at the Games after already having the SLC and to lesser degree Nagano ice dance bloc judging scandals overshadow the whole Olympics. Chan will find himself watched like a hawk by all of judges, fans, experts, and IOC members alike at next years Games.

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    ^ Let's hope so. Not just for the Olympics, but beyond as well. The entire system needs a serious re-evaluation and the ISU honchos know it.

  8. #98
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    I don't think that figure skating is dying.
    It's just isn't popular as before.
    I started following figure skating after the winter Olympic games in 2006 were shown for the first (and last) time on the main Israeli channel (like CBS).
    I watched the Ladies event as it was hyped between Slutskaya and Cohen (with Arakawa winning of course),
    the Pairs with Zhang (?) falling, and of course Ice Dance as many in Israel thought Chait/Sakhnovsky will take the bronze.
    While as a whole the games were a failure in Israel, and not shown on the main Israeli channel again (only on Eurosport with british/russian commentary),
    I do feel a lot of new people like me found a new interest in this sport.
    To me IJS was really easy to understand watching the Figure skating for the first time.
    Two scores are given-one for the technical side, and one for the performance side.
    The main problem of IJS for me is that it doesn't push the technical limit.
    You can get a higher score doing a separate 3Lz and 3Toe than doing a 3Lz-3T combo because of GOE.

  9. #99
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    Welcome, TryMeLater. Thanks for joining us. Post often, post long!

  10. #100
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    Welcome, TryMeLater. It's interestng to hear from someone in a country that doesn't have a lot of skating coverage or a long history of either skaters or fans. It's good that you have access to Eurosport.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    I predict the whole Worlds fiasco will have the judges being very very careful how they mark Chan next season, and especialy at the Games. I dont think he will win the gold. He will most likely win the bronze or 4th place, and if he skates poorly could even be lower than that. The scandal has rung so loud that I am sure the IOC has even heard about it and will give some harsh warning to the ISU to watch themselves and how figure skating goes down at the Games after already having the SLC and to lesser degree Nagano ice dance bloc judging scandals overshadow the whole Olympics. Chan will find himself watched like a hawk by all of judges, fans, experts, and IOC members alike at next years Games.
    The sad thing is then if we invoke a new Chan rule first i don't think you can do that before the olympics - too short of time, second you are revamping the whole scoring system and you also have to think about all the times Mao, Carolina and the Germans in pairs have been propped up by the scoring system. Actually add to that Fernandez, Dai and Hanyu who all have had dreadful skates oh yeah and don't forget Alyissa from the US or how Korpi and the the Finnish girls have done so well with low level ofdifficulty on their jumps. This is not just a problem with Chan folks. The scoring system would have to be overhauled. At world\s maybe this year they should have said no gold in men's and no silver in pairs??? I mean nothing against Ten his skating skills are not worthy of gold - sure he stood up on his jumps but he is no Dai, patrick, Hanyu or Fernandez heck he is barely an Evan and that "ain't" anything to brag about.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    The sad thing is then if we invoke a new Chan rule first i don't think you can do that before the olympics - too short of time, second you are revamping the whole scoring system and you also have to think about all the times Mao, Carolina and the Germans in pairs have been propped up by the scoring system. Actually add to that Fernandez, Dai and Hanyu who all have had dreadful skates oh yeah and don't forget Alyissa from the US or how Korpi and the the Finnish girls have done so well with low level ofdifficulty on their jumps. This is not just a problem with Chan folks. The scoring system would have to be overhauled. At world\s maybe this year they should have said no gold in men's and no silver in pairs??? I mean nothing against Ten his skating skills are not worthy of gold - sure he stood up on his jumps but he is no Dai, patrick, Hanyu or Fernandez heck he is barely an Evan and that "ain't" anything to brag about.
    You can't blame a skater for understanding the system and using it for its on advantage.
    I don't think that Carolina and the German pairs were propped up by the scoring system.
    I do think it is nice that Carolina's skating skills are rewarded.
    The Finnish girls are smart-they know how to work the system.
    Should Chan have won the title? IMO NO.
    Is the IJS perfect? No.
    Does it need a massive change? No!
    It just need to reward the "tricks" (and going for them) a bit more. For example the BV of a combo will be x1.1 or
    the GOE will be out of between -3 to +6 points (separate for each jump).
    Does falling has to make a difference? Not really-It should be penalized but -1 mandatory deduction with mandatory -3 GOE is enough (if the jump is the last of a combo with good first jump than it can be -2 GOE). You have to reward skaters with the guts to go for the big tricks.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    The sad thing is then if we invoke a new Chan rule first i don't think you can do that before the olympics - too short of time, second you are revamping the whole scoring system and you also have to think about all the times Mao, Carolina and the Germans in pairs have been propped up by the scoring system. Actually add to that Fernandez, Dai and Hanyu who all have had dreadful skates oh yeah and don't forget Alyissa from the US or how Korpi and the the Finnish girls have done so well with low level ofdifficulty on their jumps. This is not just a problem with Chan folks. The scoring system would have to be overhauled....
    The IJS wouldn't have to be overhauled. The judges could just be a bit more conservative in their scores. They could have given Patrick 95 instead of 98 for his short program, for instance, without changing any rules at all.

    I agree with Pangtongfan. At he Olympics the ISU will have to make adjustments like this because, unlike Worlds, someone will be watching.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy
    I do fear if we are powerful enough on this board that our whining may kill skating and that would be a shame.
    No. We're not.

  14. #104
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    If -1 mandatory deduction and -3 GOE were enough, Chan would not have won his World title.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    If -1 mandatory deduction and -3 GOE were enough, Chan would not have won his World title.
    I think the main thing that has to change is this. The ISU must acknowledge that falls and other major errors do affect the choreography, interpretation, and performance values. The "program" in program component scores should be the whole program, not just what you do between jumps.

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