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Thread: It's Time For 6.0 To Return

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by zschultz1986 View Post
    Someone tried to defend the IJS on another site by giving the explanation that 1.) Gold would never have been able to be as high at US Nationals as she was under 6.0, having bombed the long, and 2.) 6.0 was too easy to manipulate: I thought it might be an interesting discussion here..

    Well, lets judge 2013 US Champs under 6.0 (using the placement results)

    Wagner SP:1 LP:2 TFP:2.5
    Gold SP:9 LP:1 TFP:5.5
    Agnes SP:2 LP:7 TFP:8
    Hicks SP:4 LP:3 TFP:5
    Gao SP:5 LP:4 TFP:6.5
    Siraj SP:6 LP:5 TFP:8

    So the results from 2013 US Ladies in 6.0:
    1. Wagner
    2. Hicks
    3. Gold
    4. Gao
    5. Agnes
    6. Siraj

    So, she actually COULD have gotten on the podium from 9th because the free was a hot mess.
    It is not actually how the results would be under 6.0. It is an example of judging under the IJS and applying the factors to the placements (the way it used to be under6.0). If it were really judged under 6.0 the placements after SP/LP could be very different

  2. #17
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    Reading this and other threads (also in other discussion boards) I came to the conclusion that figure skating judges pretty much rank between Nazis and Terrorists. So I am asking myself what makes people want to become a judge - do they choose the ice rink because they can not actually kill someone and especially not when there is a chance someone could find out it was them? Are they former low-level skaters who simply want to take revenge for all the bad marks they once got? Are they actually people hating the sport of figure skating and therefore spend their weekends and holidays in ice rinks to really tell and show the world how much they dislike skaters? Are they being paid tons of money by various federations/coaches/skating mums to support/destroy skaters? Is there no way to control and/or punish them? And break this criminal network acting behind the scenes?

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by SugarCranberry View Post
    It is not actually how the results would be under 6.0. It is an example of judging under the IJS and applying the factors to the placements (the way it used to be under6.0). If it were really judged under 6.0 the placements after SP/LP could be very different
    I understand that, it wasn't the point to judge it as though it was a 6.0 comp. I was simply showing that using the placement ordinals system, that moving up from 9th to medal position IS possible under 6.0. Movement IS possible, that it was NOT the fault of the system that people didn't move up and down in the system as dramatically at some do under CoP, but that the fault was on the judges for not being brave enough to go with a superior performance from the penultimate flight of skaters in the LP and give them the marks that they deserve.

    Though, I think that using an Ordinal System on top of IJS may be the pest way to proceed... though I dislike what it means: More math, which may mean less clarity of marks, which means a much greater chance of cheating.

    Again, 6.0 may have been flawed, but this is where I agree with Christine Brennan and many others. 6.0 WAS the marketing stategy. Everyone knows what a 6.0 was. (Just like everyone knew what a 10 was in gymnastic) The fact that they took that away and replaced it with a system that, is really NOT user friendly or viewer friendly, UNLESS you follow skating. Remember, there are two rules that a judging system should follow, and this one fails on both marks:

    1. Clarity (Recognizability, Transparency, etc.)
    2. Consistency (People are marked using the same standard, fairness, etc.)

    IJS is fails both criteria.

  4. #19
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    I agree that there has to be a higher penalty for falls. As much as some people want to count only jumps, messing up too many for the sake of points and still winning doesn't help figure skating.

    What I have appreciated about COP is that it brought back transitions and edges, etc and sometimes more balanced choreography vs jumps with minimum betweens. However, it's also caused programs to become overloaded with these same factors to the detriment of the overall beauty of the program - the skaters are too busy counting revolutions and seconds of a position to truly perform the heart of the performance.

    There's gotta be a balance somewhere.

    At 1st I was thinking that the points could be used to create the ordinals. The points could provide some accountability by the judges (if they provided transparency.) Then, the ordinals would determine the overall winner as in 6.0.

    I also think that the broadcasts should post the maximum technical points a skater can earn. It's not as though their choreography isn't known ahead of time. In gymnastics, they post the max score on certain apparatus so you can see how well the gymnast performed the jump and understand how one move is worth more than others. At a minimum, the commentating team should be doing this, especially when you consider that tape delayed broadcasts would give them plenty of time to review the judges scores etc.

  5. #20
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    IMO no way!! I competed under 6.0 obviously not worlds or anything...I wish but at the senior level and really COP when used properly is so much better, you get an actual score which you can improve on from comp to comp and under 6.0 it was all about placement really, and for skaters who werent top skaters it wasnt much fun, at least now they can say well I was tenth but I got a new pb and this time all my spins got the levels I was looking for instead of seeing a buch of 4.0 and 3.9 s
    And also whatever about ugly catchfoots (which I agree on) at least people actually hold their spins now, aside from glorious exceptions like Ruh and Krieg and a good few others spins under 6.0 could be pretty awful where people would hit positions for like 1 rotation then just come out of them and like it or not most programs were filled with crossovers.

    I do however agree that at the top level , as in the top skaters in the world, judges and their propping up has to stop. the use of goe is ridiculous, patrick and yuna incredible skaters as they are got some pretty ridiculous goe. Some judges gave yuna a +3 on her triple sal which is IMO a pretty average jump and also Caro K got some -2 on her combo in the short which was an outright fall
    COP has its (numerous) problems but 6.0 did too, as someone else said the grass is always greener on the other side

  6. #21
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    I don't think bringing back 6.0 is the answer. Mostly because it is simply not going to happen. The ISU and Cinquanta are not going to admit that their grand experiment has in any way failed.

    But the points system needs a serious overhaul. I'm seeing fans elsewhere focusing on "educating" the masses to understand the system with the logic that if you just understood it well enough, it would make perfect sense that someone wins with four mistakes over a competitor with only one very minor one. So making broadcasters browbeat the minute details of scoring into their viewers is the answer. To me, that amounts to just asking everyone to skate around that massive elephant in the middle of the rink and if they get any of its poop on their blades, well, NBC must explain that elephant poop on your blade impacts your skating skills score in PCS and please go to ijshomework.com to see an instructional video about that.

    There has to be a system with a happy medium in all things. That doesn't mean there is a perfect system because a judged sport is bound to have an element of human preference no matter what you do. But that does not mean fans or skaters or coaches should just accept all the warts in this system. Serious consideration needs to be given to reforms. Now. Because a result in Sochi like the men's event in London is going to cause major repercussions and telling the world to go read the protocols is not going to fix it.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by heyang View Post

    At 1st I was thinking that the points could be used to create the ordinals. The points could provide some accountability by the judges (if they provided transparency.) Then, the ordinals would determine the overall winner as in 6.0.

    I also think that the broadcasts should post the maximum technical points a skater can earn. It's not as though their choreography isn't known ahead of time. In gymnastics, they post the max score on certain apparatus so you can see how well the gymnast performed the jump and understand how one move is worth more than others. At a minimum, the commentating team should be doing this, especially when you consider that tape delayed broadcasts would give them plenty of time to review the judges scores etc.
    Both great ideas. I think the points should still be public though.. although that would create complaints that someone CAN'T get a huge lead from the short program, since it wouldn't matter how many points they got, only that they were ahead of their competitor. Lol I think people will complain about something no matter what.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by aikon View Post
    So I am asking myself what makes people want to become a judge - do they choose the ice rink because they can not actually kill someone and especially not when there is a chance someone could find out it was them? Are they former low-level skaters who simply want to take revenge for all the bad marks they once got? Are they actually people hating the sport of figure skating and therefore spend their weekends and holidays in ice rinks to really tell and show the world how much they dislike skaters? Are they being paid tons of money by various federations/coaches/skating mums to support/destroy skaters? Is there no way to control and/or punish them? And break this criminal network acting behind the scenes?
    They are not being paid tons of money for judging. Judging is a volunteer activity, so in many cases they are losing money every time they take off from work to go judge an event. They do have their expenses paid, so at the higher levels it is an opportunity to travel to distant locales (but with no time for sightseeing), stay in nice hotels, and eat nice food, and drink afterward if they want.

    But to get to that level, they have to spend a lot of time judging in dinky local rinks. It's not really worth it for someone who doesn't love skating enough to spend hours and hours freezing rinkside watching a lot of bad skating looking for moments of competence.

    I think some judges may get so jaded by all the bad skating they have to judge that they take a negative approach, looking for weaknesses to mark down more than looking for positive things to reward.

    Of the judges I've known in the US, some are former high-level skaters, some were lower-level skaters as kids, some started as adults, some started judging when their kids skated and only took enough lessons themselves to understand what they were judging.

    I don't know much about the demographics of the judging corps in other countries. I imagine Canada is pretty similar.

    Quote Originally Posted by heyang View Post
    At 1st I was thinking that the points could be used to create the ordinals. The points could provide some accountability by the judges (if they provided transparency.) Then, the ordinals would determine the overall winner as in 6.0.
    Yes, that could be done. It would kind of be the most complicated aspects of both systems. Might be worth trying.

    I also think that the broadcasts should post the maximum technical points a skater can earn. It's not as though their choreography isn't known ahead of time.
    What they could do and I think sometimes have done is to announce the base value of the skater's planned program content before the program. Then at the end they can show which elements the skater got full credit for, or extra credit from positive GOEs, and which elements they lost points on.

    For PCS, the maximum possible is 50 (10.0 for five separate components) times whatever the factor is for that discipline and competition phase. For the senior men's short program, the factor is 1 so the maximum program component score is 50. For ladies the SP factor is 0.8 so the maximum score would be 40. For the long programs the factors are 2.0 and 1.6, respectively, so the maximum scores would be 100 and 80 for men's and ladies' free skates.

    But it is very very rare for anyone to come close to that maximum. Only one of the very best skaters in the world having a very good day can expect to get many scores over 9.0.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatel80 View Post
    IMO no way!! I competed under 6.0 obviously not worlds or anything...I wish but at the senior level and really COP when used properly is so much better, you get an actual score which you can improve on from comp to comp and under 6.0 it was all about placement really, and for skaters who werent top skaters it wasnt much fun, at least now they can say well I was tenth but I got a new pb and this time all my spins got the levels I was looking for instead of seeing a buch of 4.0 and 3.9 s
    And also whatever about ugly catchfoots (which I agree on) at least people actually hold their spins now, aside from glorious exceptions like Ruh and Krieg and a good few others spins under 6.0 could be pretty awful where people would hit positions for like 1 rotation then just come out of them and like it or not most programs were filled with crossovers.

    I do however agree that at the top level , as in the top skaters in the world, judges and their propping up has to stop. the use of goe is ridiculous, patrick and yuna incredible skaters as they are got some pretty ridiculous goe. Some judges gave yuna a +3 on her triple sal which is IMO a pretty average jump and also Caro K got some -2 on her combo in the short which was an outright fall
    COP has its (numerous) problems but 6.0 did too, as someone else said the grass is always greener on the other side
    Well, I understand that CoP would be useful as a tool for skaters RE: feedback about certain things... but honestly, as a former College diver (and a rather decent/good one), If you aren't having someone tape your programs and watching them back with your coach (and without him/her) to understand the hows and whys of your score, then you're not doing it right, and neither is your coach. You shouldn't be relying on a some judges sheet alone. (I'm not saying you DIDN'T, I'm just saying that I swore by dartfish, not only for review of my own dives, but also to watch video of some of the greats so I could watch their technique. I'm sure skating does something similar RE: Spins and Jumps and Other Technical Aspects)

  10. #25
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    6.0 had some serious flaws too imo. I don't think cop needs to be replaced, just adjusted.

  11. #26
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    Thank you gkelly for answering!
    But in this case - if judges are neither getting tons of money nor have personal reasons to dislike skating/skaters - and given the fact that a lot of them have been good skaters themselves - why are they giving these wrong or even illegal marks? What is their motivation?

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by aikon View Post
    Thank you gkelly for answering!
    But in this case - if judges are neither getting tons of money nor have personal reasons to dislike skating/skaters - and given the fact that a lot of them have been good skaters themselves - why are they giving these wrong or even illegal marks? What is their motivation?
    Acc. to Jon Jackson (former olympic level USFSA judge), the judges are all afraid of being wrong, ie giving great marks to skater y, when "everyone else" is giving great marks to skater x. Plus the USFSA judges have to defend their scoring and placement in a judges' review - at least they used to - not sure if this is still the case.

  13. #28
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    Thanks Eisluaf!

    so we are dealing with people being afraid of doing wrong. Who is punishing them then? Sounds like a very unnatural situation to me. And given what I am reading about wrong judging they have to be afraid of their federations and the audience alike. Maybe even the ISU. Feels a bot like - whatever you do it is wrong. Gee, I would not want to be in this position.
    Oh, and how are they being put under pressure if it s not money?

  14. #29
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    Actually, since last season or so, the judges are encouraged to take liberty in PCS scoring. That's the reason now we could see over 1 point difference in the range in each category among the judges. For example, Ten's SS in his LP range between 8.25 - 9.50.

    I don't think the judges deliberately giving out wrong or illegal marks. However the judges are human too. Human errors are unavoidable once a while. As of this time, whether or not Patrick Chan's LP scores were wrong? I haven't found wrong doing so far. The way of the PCS marks is pretty consistant from time to time, and pretty consistant from skater to skater. So I suspect that's the way they mark, wether you like it or not, not just for Chan.

  15. #30
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    Oh goodness, no. The current system has its problems, but I don't see how, even with some adjustments, going back to 6.0 is any improvement at all. With some serious adjustments, possibly, but no. I like the technically superior programs I see right now, and it's not as if 6.0 hasn't had its share of judging issues. It was just as, if not more, problematic.

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