Bad layback = good jumps? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Bad layback = good jumps?

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Shawn Sawyer is extremely flexible, especially for a man, but he's always had troubles with his 3A. I read an expert comment that it was exactly due to his flexibility that he had jump problems. Can't remember who said that.
 

Cherryy

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 27, 2012
Slutskaya's Biellmann would not count as a Biellmann under today's CoP: the held skate HAS to be over the head. Irina was not flexible enough to do that: rather than holding the blade in both hands, she held it with one hand and grasped her wrist with the other hand. That way, her skate was back behind her head, not above it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePYXpf4mKwE

Right leg biellmann - around 3.26-3.27, left leg biellmann around 3.34. In which one of these her skate is not above her head level? :think:
Some really interesting points in this thread, I'm curious what skaters have to say about it.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
She doesn't hold the position long enough, for one thing, not even one full revolution for each, so it wouldn't count under today's CoP. And that was in 2002. By 2006, she struggled to get each leg into position and the skate never got above her head..
 

FSGMT

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
She doesn't hold the position long enough, for one thing, not even one full revolution for each, so it wouldn't count under today's CoP. And that was in 2002. By 2006, she struggled to get each leg into position and the skate never got above her head..
That's correct (even if that CCoSp would be good enough for a level 3 at least, today: she performed positions in all the three basic positions on the same foot and she held the first Biellmann for two revolutions I think), but I think that back in 2002 she was flexible enough to hold a 3-revolutions Biellmann (but it has never been so graceful, and I don't really like the held-leg's position), but she lost it during her last seasons...
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Country
United-States
Gaak. I hope we haven't reached the point where good layback = includes Biellman.

I dislike that spin position intensely. There are other ways to get the level 4, right?
 

Krislite

Medalist
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
Gaak. I hope we haven't reached the point where good layback = includes Biellman.

I dislike that spin position intensely. There are other ways to get the level 4, right?

Yes, but they're a little tougher. An acceleration would do it, but few girls can pull that off.

Yuna doesn't do the Biellmann anymore because it hurts her back too much. The standard layback alone is painful enough (as she recently admitted).
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Interesting: Stephane Lambiel is very flexible in his wonderful spins, and he had terrible trouble with the triple axel, didn't he. This thread is getting more interesting by the post.

I think Irina was pretty flexible, especially for someone who was mainly a jumper and who was rather sturdily built, not a balletic sylph. I loved her skating for its unusual combination of smoothness and power.
 

zschultz1986

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Can anyone who knows the physiometrics of skating tell me about the role the core plays in all of this? I would think having a limber back would also mean having a core that is relaxed and not triggered (like you're trying to poop, is the best way I can describe it)... and that seems diametrically opposed to landing a jump where you want to be able to be both triggered in your core, but soft in the knee and control that edge with your free leg and body.
 

kittyhawk

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 9, 2013
Gaak. I hope we haven't reached the point where good layback = includes Biellman.

I dislike that spin position intensely. There are other ways to get the level 4, right?

I love the classic layback. I'm not against the Biellman, but it should be used sparingly, only when it suits the program. Also, it has to be done well if done at all.
 

gourry

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 7, 2007

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
An acceleration would do it, but few girls can pull that off.

No one works on this because it is SUCH a subjective feature that I've seen it called exactly ONCE in all the competitions I've seen at all levels. How much is a "clear increase of speed"
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Can anyone who knows the physiometrics of skating tell me about the role the core plays in all of this? I would think having a limber back would also mean having a core that is relaxed and not triggered (like you're trying to poop, is the best way I can describe it)... and that seems diametrically opposed to landing a jump where you want to be able to be both triggered in your core, but soft in the knee and control that edge with your free leg and body.
The core must be TIGHT. Basically, a really great air position should be elongated like a diver as much as possible. As the skater returns to the ice in this elongated diver position and feels the toe pick hit the ice, the knee bends to roll the landing foot down from the toe pick onto the edge while maintaining a strong core. The arms also check out to stop rotation.
 

Jackie

Spectator
Joined
Mar 23, 2013
I'm no scientist, but it seems possible that having a very strong core could make it more difficult to have a flexible back. These two muscle groups work in opposition to each other, no? Again, this is speculation as I'm not an expert on anatomy or anything, but it makes sense in my head. :laugh:

....It's interesting that this would be my first post after years of lurking, but I suppose stranger things have happened.
 

KKonas

Medalist
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Intersting thought about ankles - I'll watch more closely. I was wondering more about hip flexibility - how open or turned out they are. That a tighter, less flexible, plevic area may help in jump stability, but hurt some positions.

Angela Nikodenov is always who I think of with a great layback - free foot parallel to ice, leg lifted from hip, rather then just bent at knee. In this pic I would say her shoulders should be more parallel to ice.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Angela_Nikodinov_2.jpg

:)

ITA, Nikodinov had one of the best laybacks of all the ladies. You are correct that the free leg extension needs to come from the hip, not the knee for the best position. Yu Na's layback has her free leg extention coming from the knee, which is why she will never get a L4 for that spin. I don't think she needs a Biellmann. Perhaps her back issues affect the leg extension otherwise she should be able to do a better layback. Mao does not have a good layback either.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
I'm no scientist, but it seems possible that having a very strong core could make it more difficult to have a flexible back. These two muscle groups work in opposition to each other, no?
No, you can have a flexible back and a strong core at the same time, and actually having a strong core and a flexible back can help avoid a lot of injuries. This website has some really good articles on off ice training: http://www.sk8strong.com/articles.html
 

Nadia01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 10, 2009
Yuna said in her recent interview done after WC 2013 that layback spins still cause pain in her back. She said it sometimes makes her feel nauseous, and she jokingly called it Layback Nausea.
 
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