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Thread: Bad layback = good jumps?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    I remember reading many years ago that early in her career, Yuna trained to try and become more flexible, but they had to stop because making her flexible had an adverse effect on her jumps. So staying 'inflexible' definitely helps Yuna's jumps. But I don't think it's the back so much as the ankle that is key.

    Yuna has the stiffest ankle in the business, and I would not be surprised if Yuna's stiff ankle is the reason why her toe jumps are so spectacular, and why she can't do the loop.

    With a toe jump, you basically need to bang your toe into the ice and have that translate into an elevation, and if your ankle is flexible/wobbly, you're gonna lose the purity of the power that's generated.

    But with a loop, it strikes me that you need a flexible ankle (and knee) to spring into the air, and create the force to generate a torque. If your ankles and knees aren't flexible, then you have to use your vertebrate to torque, which will lead to back injury.

    I guess that's why Yuna consistently doesn't point her toes when she's spinning, and purposefully doesn't stretch her leg lines because she wants to keep her leg muscles rigid. Because she'd rather keep her toe jumps than become able to do the loop without risking a back injury.

    You could take Carolina to say that the theory doesn't hold water, but while Carolina is physically very strong and so has that ability to generate the power to go up into the air, she often falls and has little control over her landing. Probably because her ankles are wobbly.

    And so with Mao, who probably has one of the most flexible ankles in the business, you can see it's those ankles that enable her to do the loop as well as the triple-axel, but her toe jumps are not so powerful.

    Still, Mao's got the triple flip and flutz with excellent air position and transitions, so if she can sort out her under-rotation issues, she can get at least +1 GOEs on these jumps.

    Totally interesting on the ankle score, thanks! The other thing Mao has going for her is her snap. She snaps into those rotations really well (and she needs too, cause she doesn't get the most height on her jumps). However, yeah I can see where flexible ankles (and soft knees) could help to do the loop. When its done right (solo and in combination) is almost looks like a skater is caressing the ice with their blade and then shoots into the air. I love the look of the Toe Jump-Loop Combo... It reminds me of a top or that child's toy that spins faster as the diameter gets smaller (short and wide to tall and skinny)

  2. #17
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    Now, that never would have occurred to me. It sure seems to explain a lot. Thanks so much for pointing that out and explaining so clearly.

    I wonder if that also explains Kurt Browning's jumps. He's clearly very flexible and kept his triple axel way late into his career.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by nddandy View Post
    YU Na is flexible enough and nonetheless, she has BEAUTIFUL spin positions. It's like watching a ballerina.
    Yuna represents the pretty, feminine, lyrical style that we have seen in yamaguchi, Arakawa when they won. Not the extreme personality say of Witt, the musicality of Baiul or the youthful vigour of Lipinski. She isn't the flexibile grace of Cohen or Mitichintunik (sorry totally don't know her name but she skated with Artur D.) or the womanly sophistication of Butyrskaya or sure power of Bobek, Chouinard (a Canadian who when on had power), Manley or Rochette (what is it about the Canadian power) or Slutskaya.

  4. #19
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    Intersting thought about ankles - I'll watch more closely. I was wondering more about hip flexibility - how open or turned out they are. That a tighter, less flexible, plevic area may help in jump stability, but hurt some positions.

    Angela Nikodenov is always who I think of with a great layback - free foot parallel to ice, leg lifted from hip, rather then just bent at knee. In this pic I would say her shoulders should be more parallel to ice.

    http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...ikodinov_2.jpg

    Michelle and YuNa both tend to have toes pointed down to the ice and more bend in their knees. I love YuNa and could care less if she does a Beilmann, but no one is perfect

    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vcontent/co...s-item,00.html

    The loop was always the jump that made me the most nervous when watching Michelle, but I'm not sure if statitically it was her worst jump. YuNa doesn't do one at all. It seems to involve the hip joint in a way other jumps don't.

    Mao, on the otherhand, seems to love the loop, and has a pretty good layback position

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/90028ap/4879435452/

    Her jumps, in general though, don't seem to have the same clarity that I see in YuNa's


    Irina Slutskya is a great counter example - loved the loop, big jumps otherwise, Beilmann on both legs.

    hmmm....maybe I'm just over thinking this

  5. #20
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    Yu Na has severe back problems, so if nothing else that would prevent her from having an outstanding layback spin. Her layback is the only spin that didn't get L4 at Worlds 2013.

    Sasha Cohen and Alissa Czisny are extremely flexible, and neither has ever been a consistent jumper.

    Slutskaya's Biellmann would not count as a Biellmann under today's CoP: the held skate HAS to be over the head. Irina was not flexible enough to do that: rather than holding the blade in both hands, she held it with one hand and grasped her wrist with the other hand. That way, her skate was back behind her head, not above it.

  6. #21
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    Shawn Sawyer is extremely flexible, especially for a man, but he's always had troubles with his 3A. I read an expert comment that it was exactly due to his flexibility that he had jump problems. Can't remember who said that.

  7. #22
    Custom Title Cherryy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Slutskaya's Biellmann would not count as a Biellmann under today's CoP: the held skate HAS to be over the head. Irina was not flexible enough to do that: rather than holding the blade in both hands, she held it with one hand and grasped her wrist with the other hand. That way, her skate was back behind her head, not above it.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePYXpf4mKwE

    Right leg biellmann - around 3.26-3.27, left leg biellmann around 3.34. In which one of these her skate is not above her head level?
    Some really interesting points in this thread, I'm curious what skaters have to say about it.

  8. #23
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    She doesn't hold the position long enough, for one thing, not even one full revolution for each, so it wouldn't count under today's CoP. And that was in 2002. By 2006, she struggled to get each leg into position and the skate never got above her head..

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    She doesn't hold the position long enough, for one thing, not even one full revolution for each, so it wouldn't count under today's CoP. And that was in 2002. By 2006, she struggled to get each leg into position and the skate never got above her head..
    That's correct (even if that CCoSp would be good enough for a level 3 at least, today: she performed positions in all the three basic positions on the same foot and she held the first Biellmann for two revolutions I think), but I think that back in 2002 she was flexible enough to hold a 3-revolutions Biellmann (but it has never been so graceful, and I don't really like the held-leg's position), but she lost it during her last seasons...

  10. #25
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    For a CCoSp, all three basic positions must be on BOTH feet for a feature

  11. #26
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    Flexibility of Upper body and Lower body.
    These two are totally different.

  12. #27
    Outdated Old Dinosaur
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    Gaak. I hope we haven't reached the point where good layback = includes Biellman.

    I dislike that spin position intensely. There are other ways to get the level 4, right?

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by TontoK View Post
    Gaak. I hope we haven't reached the point where good layback = includes Biellman.

    I dislike that spin position intensely. There are other ways to get the level 4, right?
    Yes, but they're a little tougher. An acceleration would do it, but few girls can pull that off.

    Yuna doesn't do the Biellmann anymore because it hurts her back too much. The standard layback alone is painful enough (as she recently admitted).

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    She doesn't hold the position long enough, for one thing, not even one full revolution for each, so it wouldn't count under today's CoP. And that was in 2002. By 2006, she struggled to get each leg into position and the skate never got above her head..
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSlFufwQRjc&t=2m1s
    This looks pretty good to me.

  15. #30
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    Interesting: Stephane Lambiel is very flexible in his wonderful spins, and he had terrible trouble with the triple axel, didn't he. This thread is getting more interesting by the post.

    I think Irina was pretty flexible, especially for someone who was mainly a jumper and who was rather sturdily built, not a balletic sylph. I loved her skating for its unusual combination of smoothness and power.

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