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Thread: Bad layback = good jumps?

  1. #31
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    Can anyone who knows the physiometrics of skating tell me about the role the core plays in all of this? I would think having a limber back would also mean having a core that is relaxed and not triggered (like you're trying to poop, is the best way I can describe it)... and that seems diametrically opposed to landing a jump where you want to be able to be both triggered in your core, but soft in the knee and control that edge with your free leg and body.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by TontoK View Post
    Gaak. I hope we haven't reached the point where good layback = includes Biellman.

    I dislike that spin position intensely. There are other ways to get the level 4, right?
    I love the classic layback. I'm not against the Biellman, but it should be used sparingly, only when it suits the program. Also, it has to be done well if done at all.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ivy View Post

    http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...ikodinov_2.jpg

    Michelle and YuNa both tend to have toes pointed down to the ice and more bend in their knees.

    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vcontent/co...s-item,00.html
    Yuna Kim has the ugliest layback positions with her toes pointed down. But who cares, she is a good jumper .

  4. #34
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    Using Yuna's layback from 2007 as an example seems a bit unfair to me. I quoted YunaBliss's post from another thread. Her leg position during layback spin is a lot improved now.

    Quote Originally Posted by YunaBliss View Post
    Here is a similar shot of Yuna from yesterday: http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps74e42d6e.jpg
    Nonetheless, very interesting topic! I certainly see the possible correlation between ankle flexibility and solid jumps.

  5. #35
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krislite View Post
    An acceleration would do it, but few girls can pull that off.
    No one works on this because it is SUCH a subjective feature that I've seen it called exactly ONCE in all the competitions I've seen at all levels. How much is a "clear increase of speed"

  6. #36
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zschultz1986 View Post
    Can anyone who knows the physiometrics of skating tell me about the role the core plays in all of this? I would think having a limber back would also mean having a core that is relaxed and not triggered (like you're trying to poop, is the best way I can describe it)... and that seems diametrically opposed to landing a jump where you want to be able to be both triggered in your core, but soft in the knee and control that edge with your free leg and body.
    The core must be TIGHT. Basically, a really great air position should be elongated like a diver as much as possible. As the skater returns to the ice in this elongated diver position and feels the toe pick hit the ice, the knee bends to roll the landing foot down from the toe pick onto the edge while maintaining a strong core. The arms also check out to stop rotation.

  7. #37
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    I'm no scientist, but it seems possible that having a very strong core could make it more difficult to have a flexible back. These two muscle groups work in opposition to each other, no? Again, this is speculation as I'm not an expert on anatomy or anything, but it makes sense in my head.

    ....It's interesting that this would be my first post after years of lurking, but I suppose stranger things have happened.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ivy View Post
    Intersting thought about ankles - I'll watch more closely. I was wondering more about hip flexibility - how open or turned out they are. That a tighter, less flexible, plevic area may help in jump stability, but hurt some positions.

    Angela Nikodenov is always who I think of with a great layback - free foot parallel to ice, leg lifted from hip, rather then just bent at knee. In this pic I would say her shoulders should be more parallel to ice.

    http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...ikodinov_2.jpg

    ITA, Nikodinov had one of the best laybacks of all the ladies. You are correct that the free leg extension needs to come from the hip, not the knee for the best position. Yu Na's layback has her free leg extention coming from the knee, which is why she will never get a L4 for that spin. I don't think she needs a Biellmann. Perhaps her back issues affect the leg extension otherwise she should be able to do a better layback. Mao does not have a good layback either.

  9. #39
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackie View Post
    I'm no scientist, but it seems possible that having a very strong core could make it more difficult to have a flexible back. These two muscle groups work in opposition to each other, no?
    No, you can have a flexible back and a strong core at the same time, and actually having a strong core and a flexible back can help avoid a lot of injuries. This website has some really good articles on off ice training: http://www.sk8strong.com/articles.html

  10. #40
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    Yuna said in her recent interview done after WC 2013 that layback spins still cause pain in her back. She said it sometimes makes her feel nauseous, and she jokingly called it Layback Nausea.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackie View Post
    I'm no scientist, but it seems possible that having a very strong core could make it more difficult to have a flexible back. These two muscle groups work in opposition to each other, no? Again, this is speculation as I'm not an expert on anatomy or anything, but it makes sense in my head.

    ....It's interesting that this would be my first post after years of lurking, but I suppose stranger things have happened.
    Welcome to posting Jackie! Post long & often in the future!

  12. #42
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    Irina Slutskaya had an excellent layback and also great jumps. Denise Biellmann would be another. Kristi Yamaguchi would be another (her jumps were small but still great).

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    No one works on this because it is SUCH a subjective feature that I've seen it called exactly ONCE in all the competitions I've seen at all levels. How much is a "clear increase of speed"
    Yeah, I think you could argue that e.g. Lipnitskaia has it in her Biellmann and I-spin, but it's a ridiculous feature that usually isn't even possible unless you pull in, usually resulting in a different position.

    I agree that a Biellmann should only be executed when it suits the program otherwise it can look really awkward. It should be the showstopper like Radionova/Czisny/Lipnitskaia/Martinez.

  14. #44
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    But it doesn't clearly increase in speed *during* that position, only when attaining it (Czsiny, too, clearly increases speed getting from her haircutter to her Bielman), which is the intent of the feature. The only skater I've seen at the elite level in the past who might, possibly, get it called is Kwan in her layback where she drops her free foot close to the spinning leg and pulls her arms down behind her back.

  15. #45
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    No, you can have a flexible back and a strong core at the same time, and actually having a strong core and a flexible back can help avoid a lot of injuries. This website has some really good articles on off ice training: http://www.sk8strong.com/articles.html
    There is a much easier explanation of strong core + flexible back being possible: gymnasts.

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