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Thread: Plushenko: Chan Does Not Deserve World Title

  1. #46
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    Had a whole post and it automagically disappeared. My opinion is this whole chit chat about conspiracies and trade-offs, etc. is ridiculous! If you want to blame something - blame the scoring system. Patrick went into the freeskate with a commanding lead - and other than his falls, he had a beautiful skate. Denis Ten maybe could have caught up but he had his own problems. It is what it is. If Plushenko, et.al. have a problem with it - put your skates where your mouth is and beat him the next time you compete. Do I think it's right for someone to win a Gold Medal with those falls? No. But I'm not going to whine about it, either. I'm with Mathman on this. Did someone go "pssst, pssst - if you do this then we can do this and then that will happen and this won't!" I just dont' believe Canada or any other country has that much juice to completely flummox a judging panel that doesn't even include one of their own countrymen. What stake did the judges have in giving Patrick the gold? Or V&M the silver - which is the most ridiculous statement of all. Sacrifice one for the other? V&M never stood a chance against Charlie and Meryl - they didn't need the judges to mark them down.

    Isn't it about time everyone accepts the fact that Patrick won? Nothing that's said or done now is going to change at One can only hope that the system is looked at a little more objectively given the fact that he won and find the holes in it.

  2. #47
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noskates View Post
    Had a whole post and it automagically disappeared.
    You can usually retrieve a lost post by "autosave."

    http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...have-Auto-Save!!!

  3. #48
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    Chan didn't win SC, deserved to win COR and almost lost the bronze to Javi at GPF. Where is he always winning this year? Oh, and he was last at the Japan Open and didn't win the WTT right? The judges seemed to be judging fair and everyone was saying that they're sending Chan a message. So I ask, what's changed now?

    Soooooo, he had a wonderful SP skate where most of the top guns faltered, had a great lead over Denis in the free, and even though Javi and Hanyu fought back valiantly, they still had a couple little errors and could not catch up. Patrick had his mistakes, and Denis made a few small ones. Ten won the free and almost took it all from Chan. People complain that Patrick was over scored in the short, but many have said that Denis was as well, so lets say it was an even playing field. And let's be honest, they weren't the only ones who seemed to be overscored. This "new" (ahem!) phenomena seems to be happening to others as well since people have been moaning about Hanyu's SP scores throughout the season as well.

    I don't agree with how he won, but what's done is done. I swear, and I classify myself as a PC fan, I didn't want him to win, didn't expect him to, and I would have been quite happy for him place silver or bronze and Denis take it. I can't help but think that he may have felt the same way while sitting there next to Javi during Denis' scores. I'm sure it's a thrill to win another WC, but do we really think that this is the way that both he AND Skate Canada wanted him to win??? With this whole "sh@t storm" and them all being racked over the coals now??? Pfffft!

    ETA: I am hardly any sort of expert in scoring, I just know what I like and I try to study the skaters as best I can. Some have posted the results and agreed with them and some take issue with them. While I thought Denis did a wonderful job and I jumped up for him, I still see differences in both his and Chan's skating and carriage. Denis was a delight, but I still love Chan's arms, movement and footwork.

    Oh and what I'm really sad about? The fact that basically Nobody brought their A game!!!! I was looking for the men's event to be more of how the women's went down, with a lot of incredible skates and the best taking it.

  4. #49
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    I sort of feel sorry for the judges, in a way. I've never judged figure skating, but I have judged and run science fairs, and there is a similarity. I've seen good projects not get voted for because of some relatively small mistake (the hypothesis on the wrong side of the board or typos) and I've seen some so-so projects get a lot of votes because of a nice posterboard.

    Patrick Chan at his worst is like a messy science-fair project. It looks bad, but when all the points are added up it still comes out pretty good.

    Do I think there is still politicking and vote changing? I do, and the pretentiousness and supposed objectivity of this judging system makes it easier to hide. At least under 6.0 everyone knew it was subjective and political. Here, you're expected to believe that someone who can land a quad deserves only a 6 for skating skills, (I mean, what would they give me? A -100?) or that there is a big difference between a 7.0 and a 7.5 for whatever. It's still pretty subjective which makes it easy to cheat if one wished to do so.

    I will agree with those who claim that the overemphasis on edging and rotations and the underemphasis on falling is probably the main problem. Nobody at this level should need to be encouraged to "take risks." That's great for the novice skaters, and perhaps the COP is a big improvement for them, but maybe at this level they shouldn't be babied so much.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyta View Post
    Here are part from today's longer Plushenko's interview for russian newspaper...
    http://evgeni-plushenko.com/forum/vi...rt=2260#p78272
    ...

    - Leaders in single men skating is better in the year?
    - Yes, there was even few sensations. In particular, 2nd place of Denis Ten. He is originally from Kazakhstan, but recently him prepared a wonderful coach Frank Carroll, who were engaged with Olympic champion Evan Lysacek and other famous skaters. So, Ten skated very well. As for the world leader Patrick Chan, I liked his short program, but free has disappointed me. Javier Fernandez, on the contrary, was third, well skated free program. But still, I was filled with great respect to Brian Joubert. A real man! In his 28 years, he well skated short, then free program - did two quads. I expected the judges for this performance will put him higher. I am surprised with Daisuke Takahashi. I thought he would be among winners. So, there was happened a lot of surprises.
    Thanks for the translation. It's interesting that in talking about Denis Ten's training, Plushy praises Frank Carroll, who of course trained his rival Lysacek. In fact, he even mentions Lysacek in what seems like a completely neutral, professional way. Plushy also says that he liked Chan's short program. He singles out Brian Joubert for praise, pointing out that at the age of 28, Brian did two quads. And he says that he assumed that Daisuke would be among the winners. All in all, not an inflammatory statement in any way. Whatever he said anywhere else, his overall evaluation of the skaters is justifiable from what we know, and downright generous in spots.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    Thanks for the translation. It's interesting that in talking about Denis Ten's training, Plushy praises Frank Carroll, who of course trained his rival Lysacek. In fact, he even mentions Lysacek in what seems like a completely neutral, professional way. Plushy also says that he liked Chan's short program. He singles out Brian Joubert for praise, pointing out that at the age of 28, Brian did two quads. And he says that he assumed that Daisuke would be among the winners. All in all, not an inflammatory statement in any way. Whatever he said anywhere else, his overall evaluation of the skaters is justifiable from what we know, and downright generous in spots.
    Exactly, that's how I took it too. I don't know his tone, and i would be careful about throwing around accusations regarding federations without proof, But seriously, I'd almost rather hear it from him this way than in a snarky twitter message of 140 characters.
    ** please don't tell me that he bitched on twitter too lol.

  7. #52
    Custom Title demarinis5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    It's interesting that in talking about Denis Ten's training, Plushy praises Frank Carroll, who of course trained his rival Lysacek. In fact, he even mentions Lysacek in what seems like a completely neutral, professional way. Plushy also says that he liked Chan's short program. He singles out Brian Joubert for praise, pointing out that at the age of 28, Brian did two quads. And he says that he assumed that Daisuke would be among the winners. All in all, not an inflammatory statement in any way. Whatever he said anywhere else, his overall evaluation of the skaters is justifiable from what we know, and downright generous in spots.
    This!

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by SGrand View Post
    ** please don't tell me that he bitched on twitter too lol.
    Sorry to disappoint you. But Plush did, unclear if it was on twitter, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    We dont know all the goings on behind the scenes but it is quite possible V&M were sold out to help buy more marks for Chan.
    How ridiculous! You have a great imagination! Prove it! I'm sure you can't!

    Quote Originally Posted by SGrand View Post
    I didn't want him to win, didn't expect him to, and I would have been quite happy for him place silver or bronze and Denis take it.
    Neither do I. I so wished he could lose this time. Preferably off the podium. However, Takahashi and Hanyu were self-bombed. Fernandez popped. Ten's program itself was not good enough. I'm truly sorry for Patrick to win this time. But he did. It was a close call and could go either way.

  9. #54
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Pretty easy. North America would always rather a singles star than a dance or pairs star, and North America can brag the 2 dominant teams in dance anyway, and it doesnt even really matter who wins except to team.
    Well...I can't speak for Skate Canada but that sounds pretty screwy to me. Are you saying that Skate Canada will be thrilled that a North American team, Davis and White, wins the Olympics because, after all, they come from a country close to Canada?

    Are you saying that Skate Canada would gladly throw multiple world champions and Olympic gold medalists Virtue and Moir to the wolves in exchnge for a backroom deal with the U.S. to get their men's judge to vote for Chan?

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Also, how would this sacrifice be organized and carried out?
    Suddently I m picturing a dozen lambs on their way to the judges desks.


    Ten replied to Plush: @Tenis_Den: @EvgeniPlushenko Thank you very much, Zhenya! Get well soon

    Well Denis Ten must have THE week of his life, he gave two amazing performances,won silver at Worlds and had Plush congradulating him on twitter.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyta View Post
    - Leaders in single men skating is better in the year?
    - Yes, there was even few sensations. In particular, 2nd place of Denis Ten. He is originally from Kazakhstan, but recently him prepared a wonderful coach Frank Carroll, who were engaged with Olympic champion Evan Lysacek and other famous skaters. So, Ten skated very well. As for the world leader Patrick Chan, I liked his short program, but free has disappointed me. Javier Fernandez, on the contrary, was third, well skated free program. But still, I was filled with great respect to Brian Joubert. A real man! In his 28 years, he well skated short, then free program - did two quads. I expected the judges for this performance will put him higher. I am surprised with Daisuke Takahashi. I thought he would be among winners. So, there was happened a lot of surprises.
    Plushy can become good TV commentator. I like his opinion. Cheerfully and positive but also he can point out the shortcomings

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by noskates View Post
    I'm with Mathman on this. Did someone go "pssst, pssst - if you do this then we can do this and then that will happen and this won't!" I just dont' believe Canada or any other country has that much juice to completely flummox a judging panel that doesn't even include one of their own countrymen. What stake did the judges have in giving Patrick the gold? Or V&M the silver - which is the most ridiculous statement of all. Sacrifice one for the other? V&M never stood a chance against Charlie and Meryl - they didn't need the judges to mark them down.
    You are naïve if you think that this is how things work, in any domain.
    You couldn’t convince even a child with this approach, but of course there are plenty of refined methods, perfected by humans in the past two millennia, to convince, persuade and manipulate people (in our case judges) to obtain the desired result.
    Two examples from figure skating : mass-media campaign for Sale and Pelletier to get gold & sustained propaganda against Plushenko carried out before Vancouver .
    Also you need to strategize and choose the targets.
    If V&M never stood a chance before D&W, as you said, why spend resources/time/energy on politicking for them?

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by amber68 View Post
    sustained propaganda against Plushenko carried out before Vancouver .
    Also you need to strategize and choose the targets.
    That happened rightfully because of Plushenko´s own thoughtless remarks about his transitions. Plushenko was no victim, he caused it all himself.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaana View Post
    That happened rightfully because of Plushenko´s own thoughtless remarks about his transitions. Plushenko was no victim, he caused it all himself.

    I disagree. Indeed Plushy's remarks were thoughtless but the campaign before Vancouver was much more than taking advantage of silly comments made by one of competitors.

    It really had all the elements of a textbook propaganda campaign:
    Demonizing the enemy - clips with Lenin's statues falling and Plushy presented as an evil commie
    Appeal to authority - Joe Inman, an official ISU judge, sends an e-mail to other official ISU judges, just before the competition, ref. how to score Plushenko's transitions. Accidentally this e-mail leaks to the press...Moreover at ISU seminars there are presented videos of Plushenko and his weak points are given as an example ( it is completely unethical to use a competitor as an example no matter who he/she is, but isn't it amazing that they chose Plushenko despite the fact that I am sure there were plenty of retired skaters who could be given as examples?)
    Tireless repetition of an idea - Plushenko & lack of transitions were repeated ad nauseum on all the media channels (including figure skating forums where some pople do post because they have an agenda)

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaana View Post
    That happened rightfully because of Plushenko´s own thoughtless remarks about his transitions. Plushenko was no victim, he caused it all himself.
    Ok, next time Plushenko will say he has more transitions than any other skater in FS history and he´ll receive 10s all the board. Right!
    Probably judges can´t see if there are transitions or not, they need Plushenko to point it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by amber68 View Post
    I disagree. Indeed Plushy's remarks were thoughtless but the campaign before Vancouver was much more than taking advantage of silly comments made by one of competitors.

    It really had all the elements of a textbook propaganda campaign:
    Demonizing the enemy - clips with Lenin's statues falling and Plushy presented as an evil commie
    This is old, the ¨evil commie¨ image exists since Yagudin vs. Plushenko era, that´s how Yagudin became so popular in USA and Canada, people wanted to recreate the Cold War and they ¨adopted¨ Yagudin In 2010 their dream came true because they had their own hero.
    IMO Plushenko likes to star in the NBC fluffs and be the evil Russian.

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