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Thread: Plushenko: Chan Does Not Deserve World Title

  1. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    I was honestly surprised when some Chan ubers actually disagreed with his win in London. I thought they are all as their idol: jerk-ish talking. Good to know that they are not. Just some of them. It's not about uber-ism only. It's about basic human values like honesty, decency and fair play. I am a strong believer that no one with good heart would ever accept the results of Nice and London. And pardon me dear some Chan ubers, but unless you are on SC payroll i.e. typing for money, I have no idea why someone would want to humiliate him/herself that much.

    The evidence of ISU corruption is all there: Chanboni wins over better skated guys and wins repeatedly, taking his prize money that should go to someone else's pocket and has absolutely no problems with that. It's as disgusting as stealing. The fact is that this Chanflation corruption became something that cannot be ignored. But ISU officials at WTT VIP sector were 100 years old, which alone was a really unpleasant sight. I doubt all of them are mentally stable and not on medication due to various health issues. There is nothing wrong with that, we all will be old one day. The wrong thing is to keep being an official when you are clearly not capable of doing that job. It's absolutely useless to try to reason them, Don Ottavio with his speech at WTT in a la Mussolini style made it quite clear. Judges are just staffers who do/say/give the score that was requested and that is all. Inman was in Vancouver, now they have Krick: http://daisuke-takahashi.megabb.com/...yo-japan#18928
    Look at just this one post! You are truly good at your role of being a troll, aren't you?! You are attacking the characters of other people who hold the opposit opinions. It is an offensive way which is totally uncalled for! No opponents of yours want to stoop to your level and call you back in the same way!

  2. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    As far as the whole campaigning and trash talking things go, I think it's pretty classless when Chan, Joubert, Plushenko, etc. to go after each other, and I don't condone that. But for Plushenko to say that "Chan didn't win, his figure skating federation did!" is an audacious statement with no evidence to back it up other than he "knows" figure skating. And a rather hypocritical one, when his own Russian federation politicked/manipulated such that B/S won gold in Salt Lake City -- and, in that case, there was evidence.
    Exactly! And now in this thread it's about Plushenko's trash talking.

  3. #393
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    And a rather hypocritical one, when his own Russian federation politicked/manipulated such that B/S won gold in Salt Lake City -- and, in that case, there was evidence.
    I wonder if we will ever know the truth about all that. The "evidence" was a tearful and confused confession by a distraught judge who was ambushed in the hotel lobby. She later changed her story and said (to the New York Times), no, no it wasn't the Russians, it was the Canadians who have been pressuring me for months.

    if I were writing the script for the movie it would go like this. After the hullaballoo instigated by the U.S. television and print media, the ISU realized they needed someone to fall on his sword. Gailhaguet volunteered, in exchange for the promise to be the next ISU president after Cinquanta retired.
    Last edited by Mathman; 04-18-2013 at 01:04 PM.

  4. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Exactly! And now in this thread it's about Plushenko's trash talking.
    You are so biased Canadian-American. You think, only the russians and the Rus Fed can be corrupt, and can talk trash.

  5. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    You are so biased Canadian-American. You think, only the russians and the Rus Fed can be corrupt, and can talk trash.
    No, if you've read the original CanadianSkaterGuy's post, you'd know that I was agreeing with him on calling out Patrick Chan on his trash talking a few years back. Now, I'm only talking about this time's Plushenko's trash talking. So your idol is no better than Chan. That's what I was saying.

  6. #396
    Celebrating the Excellence of #VirtueMoir golden411's Avatar
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    Patrick Chan 4toe3toe3loop video (Apr 18)

    Patrick Chan 4toe3toe3loop

    9-second video from John Kerr at SOI practice on Apr 18.

  7. #397
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    I hope regardless what he does as far as any future skating competitions Plushenko continues to speak his mind. It obviously bothers some people alot when someone speaks the dreaded truth, and it is from one of the most revered and respected individuals in the history of the sport who says it.

  8. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by golden411 View Post
    Patrick Chan 4toe3toe3loop

    9-second video from John Kerr at SOI practice on Apr 18.
    He also will need two 3Axels in lp

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    You assume he'll be 90%, to use your words, "based on what"? And if you think Plushenko is a way better skater than Chan in everything then that's your opinion... yes, as a technician Plushenko is far more consistent than Chan, but Chan's skating skills, edges, choreography, spins, and interpretation are much better.
    Based on what? especially in choreography, spins and interpretation, Chan's choreography consist of random movements from element to element, with zero relation to the music, zero story. I don't even want to compare spins and interpretation. Just FOR ONCE watch Plushenko lp from RN.

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    Chan's spins are nothing amazing and grossly overscored (just like every department of his skating is overmarked relative to what he produces). Compared to Lambiel, Eldredge, or even Oda or Stojko his spins are nothing. Plushenko in his prime had very good spins, and atleast the level of Chan's. As for interpretation, lol, there is no interpretation in Chan's skating at all. He is extremely weak in that area, what he does never relates to the music, and you might as well play any music in the background as it is just elevator music for him. He does all these transitions and moves but not connected to the music in anyway. Plushenko is light years ahead in that deparment, even when he is just stroking he does it in a way that relates to the music and brings the feeling to the audience and a power and presence to the music and performance. I would love to see the interpretation marks Chan would get if he wore a face mask and was said to be a skater from Lithunia or Mexico instead, especialy when he falls several times.

  10. #400
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    Quote Originally Posted by bestskate8 View Post
    Based on what? especially in choreography, spins and interpretation, Chan's choreography consist of random movements from element to element, with zero relation to the music, zero story.
    Just on Choreography, I'd have to say Chan does much better from a skating point of view, not necessarily from the point of view of dance audiences who don't care about skating values.

    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/...-0-file,00.pdf

    For those who do care about the criteria for the Choreography component,

    Purpose need not require a story. Abstract, formalist purposes are also possible, as well as simply establishing a consistent character or attitude or mood. It should relate to the music in some way, but stories and intimate relation to the music do not always go hand in hand.

    Proportion would address issues such as frontloading or backloading, emphasis on jumps over other elements (or the reverse) or of elements over transitions (or the reverse).

    Unity could apply to a consistent idea being maintained throughout the program, but it also refers to the continuity of the movement. E.g., a lot of stopping and starting would work against the unity.

    Utilization of Personal and Public Space would suffer if the skater doesn't project beyond the limits of his/her own body, or to the spectators beyond the limits of ice surface -- not a problem for either Chan or Plushenko. But also if the performance is projected mainly to the judge's side of the arena, with significantly less attention paid to the opposite sides and the ends of the ice -- which has historically been a weakness of Plushenko's program construction.

    Pattern and Ice Coverage refers to patterns of travel around the ice surface -- does the skater make big curves in both directions, as well as smaller curves and straight lines for variety? Surprising changes of direction? Does the skater visit all parts of the ice surface rather than favoring some parts and ignoring others? Are the jumps and spins spread out to various points on the ice or do they tend to be placed the same, often predictable, locations? This is one of Chan's biggest strengths, and not one of Plushenko's.

    Phrasing and FormI think Chan and Plushenko are both good at this, although in different ways -- Chan's phrasing tends to be more subtle and Plushenko's more in your face. I'd have to go back and analyze specific programs to see how much is an effect of the program structure and how much of each skater's immediate reactions to the music, which would fall more under the Interpretation component.

    Originality of Purpose, Movement, and Design This could include more large-scale originality in terms of music choice, program theme, etc. It could also involve smaller choices such as variations to elements, unusual ways of getting into or out of an element or getting from one point on the ice to another. I think Chan is significantly better at the small-scale originality, and neither of these two guys stand out for me on large-scale originality, though they each have had their moments.

    I.e., the judges are looking at a lot of different things in evaluating this component.



    I don't even want to compare spins and interpretation. Just FOR ONCE watch Plushenko lp from RN.
    I think Plushenko's interpretation of the music tends to be significantly better than his choreography.

  11. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    I think Plushenko's interpretation of the music tends to be significantly better than his choreography.
    Me too. I think most of his career he sat on his laurels on the that part. But then again maybe it is in his character to throw it away when he competes, I ve seen him in training many times and he does the choreo as he is taught and then in competitions he does his own stuff.

  12. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    And a rather hypocritical one, when his own Russian federation politicked/manipulated such that B/S won gold in Salt Lake City -- and, in that case, there was evidence.
    No. B/S won SLC by being better than S/P whether you or the North American press like it or not. The "evidence" of "corruption" came from a French judge who said she was paid by the Russians but later admitted that she'd recieved threats from the NA press to say that. B/S were miles better than S/P.

    I thought the behaviour of the commentators/press in that situation was abominable...much like their behaviour at Vancouver, where Hamilton and Bezic spent the entire long program of Plushenko making sarcastic barbs, where the NBC did a very lovely interview with Plushenko that they then cut down and edited with all sorts of shots to make him out as a big evil Soviet villain taking on their sweet innocent All-American Boy, and then there was the disgraceful reporting afterwards where all kinds of "quotes" were made up and attributed to Plushenko; things (like the platinum medal) that he simply didn't say.

  13. #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by karne View Post
    No. B/S won SLC by being better than S/P whether you or the North American press like it or not. The "evidence" of "corruption" came from a French judge who said she was paid by the Russians but later admitted that she'd recieved threats from the NA press to say that. B/S were miles better than S/P.

    I thought the behaviour of the commentators/press in that situation was abominable...much like their behaviour at Vancouver, where Hamilton and Bezic spent the entire long program of Plushenko making sarcastic barbs, where the NBC did a very lovely interview with Plushenko that they then cut down and edited with all sorts of shots to make him out as a big evil Soviet villain taking on their sweet innocent All-American Boy, and then there was the disgraceful reporting afterwards where all kinds of "quotes" were made up and attributed to Plushenko; things (like the platinum medal) that he simply didn't say.
    The way she was treated was appalling, but I highly doubt that she would have changed her tune and admitted to cheating if she hadn't actually done it. She wasn't being tortured or something and obviously if she prevaricated about choosing the Russians then the Russians/French would have been mad with her (and you would assume her loyalty to her federation is greater than North American federations). Although one can only speculate what the case was... at any rate, it was a decade ago. But it's pretty suspect for Plushenko to call out the Canadian fed when many federations, including his own, politic and manipulate. This is figure skating, after all.

  14. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Chan's spins are nothing amazing and grossly overscored (just like every department of his skating is overmarked relative to what he produces). Compared to Lambiel, Eldredge, or even Oda or Stojko his spins are nothing. Plushenko in his prime had very good spins, and atleast the level of Chan's. As for interpretation, lol, there is no interpretation in Chan's skating at all. He is extremely weak in that area, what he does never relates to the music, and you might as well play any music in the background as it is just elevator music for him. He does all these transitions and moves but not connected to the music in anyway. Plushenko is light years ahead in that deparment, even when he is just stroking he does it in a way that relates to the music and brings the feeling to the audience and a power and presence to the music and performance. I would love to see the interpretation marks Chan would get if he wore a face mask and was said to be a skater from Lithunia or Mexico instead, especialy when he falls several times.
    This is ridiculous. Although I'm hardly surprised when you consider Stojko to be a "fabulous spinner". Chan has some of the best spins of the men's field, and his spins even change from year to year. He's one of the only men to do a proper cross-foot spin, his camel positions and sit positions are textbook. He has two different sit positions. He gets huge height on his death drop. Plushenko at his prime had decent spins, but they pale in comparison to Chan's in terms of speed, rotation, variety and difficulty (other than his strained Biellmann).

    I had to do a double-take when you said you can play any background music in Chan's performances, as I was sure you were talking about Plushenko. How the heck does Plushenko relate to the music when he is stroking? He only "interprets" the music at standstills or when he's gliding. I'm sure you consider hip thrusts and frenetic flailing as interpretation, right? I'm sure if you put a mask on Chan's Take Five, La Boheme or Aranjuez you'd certainly be able to tell what program it is. Turn off the music in the first 2 minutes of Plushenko's 2010 Olympic FS and honestly tell me if anyone would be able to tell that it's a tango he's skating to.

    I know you hate Chan but when you say things like Plushenko has more musicality or that his spins are on par with Chan, I can't take you seriously. Things Plushenko does do better than Chan is facial expressiveness, commanding the ice and having a presence, projecting to the audience, and jumping consistency (of which, he's the best of all time, IMO). I would love to see the interpretation marks Plushenko would get if he took the jumps out of his program and was said to be a skater from Lithuania or Mexico.

  15. #405
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    Mountain, molehill. Plushenko congratulated Denis Ten for a great performance and said, hey man, you shoulda won. He said, man, there's something wrong when a guy can fall four times and win the world championship.

    That's it.

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