Plushenko: Chan Does Not Deserve World Title | Page 20 | Golden Skate

Plushenko: Chan Does Not Deserve World Title

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bestskate8

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Where?! Point it out to me, please! You don't have evidence.

Yes, there are evidences. Laysachek fake gold in 2010 Oly and Chan's two fake gold from 2012, 2013 WCH

Videos are evidence. You think millions people (except Canada, US) are taking seriously judges marks from events like above.
They can foolish system, but not people. That is a fact :p



Everyone can have their opinions, of course, and no one is an exception, Plushenko or Chan or whoever. That said, whether or not I agree with Plushenko on Chan's 13 Worlds win, he does come across rather poorly here. The whole platinum medal thing from the 2010 was nasty enough when it made a big splash on news and media, and now this.
:laugh:

Link please, but not from us or canada media, no one outside took them serious during Oly.

I personally like idea to call his silver medal as platinum, because he skated most difficult programs, it was clean and passionate, and it is nobody business if Plushenko, his fans call it platinum and Putin call it gold. If people value his medal this high, it is only their matter, and no one else. Certainly not Lysachek or his pr media business. US media behaves like dictator and I am not surprised at all. But for other nations and cultures they looks laughable and can’t be taken seriously. What is value in US, not necessary has value in Russia for instance.:p
US media might not like it, but this is how it works, when someone tried to foolish with judging system, they HAVE to expect fire back from opined people all over the World.

I think us media has to look at themself from a distance sometimes. :popcorn:
 

plushyfan

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Everyone can have their opinions, of course, and no one is an exception, Plushenko or Chan or whoever. That said, whether or not I agree with Plushenko on Chan's 13 Worlds win, he does come across rather poorly here. The whole platinum medal thing from the 2010 was nasty enough when it made a big splash on news and media, and now this.

I think I would appreciate his opinions as what they are if he's simply commenting as one of the greatest figure skaters in history and not as an active participant in competition, but he was criticizing Lysacek right after he competed against him and lost (again, whether I agree with Plushenko on the point of quad is another issue altogether), and now, he may potentially compete against Chan next year, and he's tearing down his competition (and once again, whether he really doesn't think Chan's a worthy competition or not is beside the point). Whether his opinions have merits or not, it just comes across as a poor sport (not to make a pun, but). He's done this one too many times.

LOL! He didn't give himself platinum medal. It seems the American media is a perfect mashine.

"He's done this one too many times." When?????? He always praises his opponents. Maybe you don't know, Plushenko provided advice Hanyu, how does the Bielmann, and Verner told in an interview he asked Plushy to help a bit with the jumps, and Plushy agreed.


he had a tweet and he told in the interview:

" a Canadian guy Patrick Chan won in Canada. Yes, he is not a bad skater, but how can anyone win Worlds with 4 major mistakes two of which are falls? I have no idea how they calculated his scores without lobbying. But I think it happened for the first time in my memory that a skater with 4 big mistakes 2 of them falls won the World title. And you know, everyone takes it loyal, adequate..." no more

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?38503-Evgeni-Plushenko/page17- the whole interview translated let's talk, thanks for it..

And is this a campaigne against Chan??? hm.
 

bestskate8

On the Ice
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Aug 31, 2003
So it's okay when Plushenko talks so that the judges hear and then mark down Chan, but then you cry foul when people (like Inman) campaigned against Plushenko resulting in him being marked down? Cheating is cheating, and if Plushenko's purpose is to start getting the judges to reduce his opponents' scores to give himself a shot, that's pretty low (and I don't think that's what he's doing, he's just stating his opinion). Nothing Plushenko says or doesn't say will change the fact that Takahashi/Hanyu/Fernandez/Chan will all likely outscore him on PCS at the Olympics. I wish this actually convinces him to have a well-choreographed program instead of just a slew of jumps.


:unsure:



based on what?

Whatever...
Does he? Chan doesnt need an anti campaign, he manages it perfecty alone.But if he skates like worlds 2011 it would be a perfect Oly Gold performance.

Well, it depend how Plushenko will skate ( assume he will be 90% ) and I think Plushenko way better skater then Chan... . in everything. Especially when you watch them back to back. "Like the ground and the sky"


Instead of campaigning against other skaters, maybe he should focus more on how he can improve his own skating and programs in order to compete with them in Sochi.

:confused:

your frustration is understandable, but it is not Plushenko campaigning but Chan and judges who marked him inappropriate.
Plushenko only supported Denis Ten with his comments and let him know, that he deserved the win. I would trust Plushenko and not judges
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
No. He did in 2003 and 2004.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C29DHIrWj-8 2' 34" 2003 WCh not perfect
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShH2dvsEuMk 2' 20" 2004 WCH

Thank you for the info!

So the last time he did it was 9 years ago. It will be 10 years by the time Sochi comes. I don't think he has it anymore.

Yes, there are evidences. Laysachek fake gold in 2010 Oly and Chan's two fake gold from 2012, 2013 WCH

Videos are evidence. You think millions people (except Canada, US) are taking seriously judges marks from events like above.
They can foolish system, but not people. That is a fact :p

That's purely an opinion! Period!:popcorn:
 

plushyfan

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Country
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In this thread clearly shown that some N-Americans want to hate Plushy. I read : he is arrogante, he makes a campaigne against Chan, he has inappropriate behavior, he has bad sportsmanship, after Vancouver he lost the respect of people, he is a only jumper, and so on....
But outside of this forum:

these montages were made in 2010.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzphbht4bw4 Tribute to Plushenko 2010
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxtqpafIffg E. Plushenko tribute to Vancouver
forever our champion
your fans from all over the world
love you and believe in you
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH-OvAsu3xQ Tribute to Plushenko, superhero
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaWUjJpYqP4 Evgeni Plushenko_Dietro gli Occhi Azzurri_Vancouver 2010.avi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDcP-U52-9A Tribute to Evgeni "Zhenya" Plushenko
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFGHFA0LsfM Tribute to Plushenko
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvUrQzYiFq4 Brazilian fans' tribute to King of Ice - Evgeni Plushenko
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qIovfoDkpE Evgeni Plushenko : The story of a legend
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95pNLgRHGoE Zhenya tribute
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RpVVGMC52Q Plushenko hero
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15btDxx2ESA Evgeni Plushenko, The Greatest Figure Skater of All Times
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NutU5hkm8o Olympic overcome- beautiful!!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_STnOk9_EQ Evgeni Plushenko_Tribute European 2010 Olympic 2010.avi -I think it is more than a tribute :eek::: " Just a sign of love for the man who makes my lifetime a long and beautiful dream.." and "Tribute to E. P., who made my world a better place".

And this is not all of montages.
 

let`s talk

Match Penalty
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I was honestly surprised when some Chan ubers actually disagreed with his win in London. I thought they are all as their idol: jerk-ish talking. Good to know that they are not. Just some of them. It's not about uber-ism only. It's about basic human values like honesty, decency and fair play. I am a strong believer that no one with good heart would ever accept the results of Nice and London. And pardon me dear some Chan ubers, but unless you are on SC payroll i.e. typing for money, I have no idea why someone would want to humiliate him/herself that much.

The evidence of ISU corruption is all there: Chanboni wins over better skated guys and wins repeatedly, taking his prize money that should go to someone else's pocket and has absolutely no problems with that. It's as disgusting as stealing. The fact is that this inflation corruption became something that cannot be ignored. But ISU officials at WTT VIP sector were 100 years old, which alone was a really unpleasant sight. I doubt all of them are mentally stable and not on medication due to various health issues. There is nothing wrong with that, we all will be old one day. The wrong thing is to keep being an official when you are clearly not capable of doing that job. It's absolutely useless to try to reason them, Don Ottavio with his speech at WTT in a la Mussolini style made it quite clear. Judges are just staffers who do/say/give the score that was requested and that is all. Inman was in Vancouver, now they have Krick: http://daisuke-takahashi.megabb.com/t916p225-world-team-trophy-tokyo-japan#18928
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
:unsure:

based on what?

Well, it depend how Plushenko will skate ( assume he will be 90% ) and I think Plushenko way better skater then Chan... . in everything. Especially when you watch them back to back. "Like the ground and the sky"

I said they will all likely outscore him on PCS based on the fact their programs are vastly superior to his in terms of choreographic content, transitions, etc. Plushenko's highest PCS scores are from Euros 2012 (42.50, 88.84), and Takahashi (44.29/93.58), Chan(45.67/92.70). Hanyu's PB is lower in the FS but higher in the SP (43.43/85.16). Fernandez is lower in his SP, but higher in his FS (41.93/89.42). At the Vancouver Olympics, with perfect programs, Plushenko was still getting outscored by flawed Lambiel/Takahashi in the FS and by Takahashi/Chan/Lysacek/Lambiel even with a perfect SP with a quad. And with all the guys now attempting quads, even if he goes clean, the whole field's base value is much higher now and his advantage over them is minimized. Perhaps with a quad and clean skate, Plushenko can pull 43+, and 90+ points PCS. My point was that if all 5 guys I mentioned skate clean or close to clean, unless Plushenko legitimately improves his programs content-wise, he will surely lose to most, if not all of them.

You assume he'll be 90%, to use your words, "based on what"? And if you think Plushenko is a way better skater than Chan in everything then that's your opinion... yes, as a technician Plushenko is far more consistent than Chan, but Chan's skating skills, edges, choreography, spins, and interpretation are much better.

As far as the whole campaigning and trash talking things go, I think it's pretty classless when Chan, Joubert, Plushenko, etc. to go after each other, and I don't condone that. But for Plushenko to say that "Chan didn't win, his figure skating federation did!" is an audacious statement with no evidence to back it up other than he "knows" figure skating. And a rather hypocritical one, when his own Russian federation politicked/manipulated such that B/S won gold in Salt Lake City -- and, in that case, there was evidence.
 

let`s talk

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And with all the guys now attempting quads, even if he goes clean, the whole field's base value is much higher now and his advantage over them is minimized.
:laugh: Priceless statemnet in its ISU stupidity because it's TRUE! Chanboni will wipe the ice with his big butt multiple times but the system is designed the way that he can still WIN!

Booing in Sochi is granted. FS will be kicked out of Olympics thanks to Chan, SC and their online staffers. Great work, guys! Carry on. :popcorn:
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
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:laugh: Priceless statemnet in its ISU stupidity because it's TRUE!

I was saying that based on the fact that Plushenko does only one quad in his FS, he's already disadvantaging himself from Hanyu/Chan/Fernandez/Reynolds who do multiple quads and Takahashi, who essentially has the same jumping passes as Plushenko, will get much higher PCS than him. If Plushenko goes clean, he will not win over Takahashi/Chan/Hanyu/Fernandez/Reynolds/Ten should they all go clean or close to clean. If Plushenko goes clean and the other guys bomb (which of course they all have at some point this season), then maybe he has a shot at a medal, but this isn't 2010 where his SP quad or FS quad is an advantage over the field -- now it's par for the course. So the only way he can come to par with them is adding a 2nd FS quad (which would be something he hasn't done for a long while) or significantly improving his program and overall skating. In his recovery period, the latter is something he should really focus on -- improved speed/flow, more graceful arms, skating around the ice with transitions incorporated, etc.
 

plushyfan

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Country
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c

As far as the whole campaigning and trash talking things go, I think it's pretty classless when Chan, Joubert, Plushenko, etc. to go after each other, and I don't condone that. But for Plushenko to say that "Chan didn't win, his figure skating federation did!" is an audacious statement with no evidence to back it up other than he "knows" figure skating. And a rather hypocritical one, when his own Russian federation politicked/manipulated such that B/S won gold in Salt Lake City -- and, in that case, there was evidence.

My Eurosport commentator was an ISU judge. She is always talking about something like this:the great federation's power and influence. Don't get me wrong, not only about Canadian Fed, but Russian Fed, US Fed and so on. Maybe she had experience...
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
I was honestly surprised when some Chan ubers actually disagreed with his win in London. I thought they are all as their idol: jerk-ish talking. Good to know that they are not. Just some of them. It's not about uber-ism only. It's about basic human values like honesty, decency and fair play. I am a strong believer that no one with good heart would ever accept the results of Nice and London. And pardon me dear some Chan ubers, but unless you are on SC payroll i.e. typing for money, I have no idea why someone would want to humiliate him/herself that much.

The evidence of ISU corruption is all there: Chanboni wins over better skated guys and wins repeatedly, taking his prize money that should go to someone else's pocket and has absolutely no problems with that. It's as disgusting as stealing. The fact is that this inflation corruption became something that cannot be ignored. But ISU officials at WTT VIP sector were 100 years old, which alone was a really unpleasant sight. I doubt all of them are mentally stable and not on medication due to various health issues. There is nothing wrong with that, we all will be old one day. The wrong thing is to keep being an official when you are clearly not capable of doing that job. It's absolutely useless to try to reason them, Don Ottavio with his speech at WTT in a la Mussolini style made it quite clear. Judges are just staffers who do/say/give the score that was requested and that is all. Inman was in Vancouver, now they have Krick: http://daisuke-takahashi.megabb.com/t916p225-world-team-trophy-tokyo-japan#18928

Look at just this one post! You are truly good at your role of being a troll, aren't you?! You are attacking the characters of other people who hold the opposit opinions. It is an offensive way which is totally uncalled for! No opponents of yours want to stoop to your level and call you back in the same way!:slink:
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
As far as the whole campaigning and trash talking things go, I think it's pretty classless when Chan, Joubert, Plushenko, etc. to go after each other, and I don't condone that. But for Plushenko to say that "Chan didn't win, his figure skating federation did!" is an audacious statement with no evidence to back it up other than he "knows" figure skating. And a rather hypocritical one, when his own Russian federation politicked/manipulated such that B/S won gold in Salt Lake City -- and, in that case, there was evidence.

Exactly! And now in this thread it's about Plushenko's trash talking.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
And a rather hypocritical one, when his own Russian federation politicked/manipulated such that B/S won gold in Salt Lake City -- and, in that case, there was evidence.

I wonder if we will ever know the truth about all that. The "evidence" was a tearful and confused confession by a distraught judge who was ambushed in the hotel lobby. She later changed her story and said (to the New York Times), no, no it wasn't the Russians, it was the Canadians who have been pressuring me for months.

if I were writing the script for the movie it would go like this. After the hullaballoo instigated by the U.S. television and print media, the ISU realized they needed someone to fall on his sword. Gailhaguet volunteered, in exchange for the promise to be the next ISU president after Cinquanta retired. :yes:
 
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Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
You are so biased Canadian-American. You think, only the russians and the Rus Fed can be corrupt, and can talk trash.

No, if you've read the original CanadianSkaterGuy's post, you'd know that I was agreeing with him on calling out Patrick Chan on his trash talking a few years back. Now, I'm only talking about this time's Plushenko's trash talking.:rolleye: So your idol is no better than Chan. That's what I was saying.;)
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
I hope regardless what he does as far as any future skating competitions Plushenko continues to speak his mind. It obviously bothers some people alot when someone speaks the dreaded truth, and it is from one of the most revered and respected individuals in the history of the sport who says it. :laugh:
 

bestskate8

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Patrick Chan 4toe3toe3loop

9-second video from John Kerr at SOI practice on Apr 18.

He also will need two 3Axels in lp

You assume he'll be 90%, to use your words, "based on what"? And if you think Plushenko is a way better skater than Chan in everything then that's your opinion... yes, as a technician Plushenko is far more consistent than Chan, but Chan's skating skills, edges, choreography, spins, and interpretation are much better.

Based on what? especially in choreography, spins and interpretation, Chan's choreography consist of random movements from element to element, with zero relation to the music, zero story. I don't even want to compare spins and interpretation. Just FOR ONCE watch Plushenko lp from RN.:biggrin:
 

pangtongfan

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Chan's spins are nothing amazing and grossly overscored (just like every department of his skating is overmarked relative to what he produces). Compared to Lambiel, Eldredge, or even Oda or Stojko his spins are nothing. Plushenko in his prime had very good spins, and atleast the level of Chan's. As for interpretation, lol, there is no interpretation in Chan's skating at all. He is extremely weak in that area, what he does never relates to the music, and you might as well play any music in the background as it is just elevator music for him. He does all these transitions and moves but not connected to the music in anyway. Plushenko is light years ahead in that deparment, even when he is just stroking he does it in a way that relates to the music and brings the feeling to the audience and a power and presence to the music and performance. I would love to see the interpretation marks Chan would get if he wore a face mask and was said to be a skater from Lithunia or Mexico instead, especialy when he falls several times.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Based on what? especially in choreography, spins and interpretation, Chan's choreography consist of random movements from element to element, with zero relation to the music, zero story.

Just on Choreography, I'd have to say Chan does much better from a skating point of view, not necessarily from the point of view of dance audiences who don't care about skating values.

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152086-169302-64121-0-file,00.pdf

For those who do care about the criteria for the Choreography component,

Purpose need not require a story. Abstract, formalist purposes are also possible, as well as simply establishing a consistent character or attitude or mood. It should relate to the music in some way, but stories and intimate relation to the music do not always go hand in hand.

Proportion would address issues such as frontloading or backloading, emphasis on jumps over other elements (or the reverse) or of elements over transitions (or the reverse).

Unity could apply to a consistent idea being maintained throughout the program, but it also refers to the continuity of the movement. E.g., a lot of stopping and starting would work against the unity.

Utilization of Personal and Public Space would suffer if the skater doesn't project beyond the limits of his/her own body, or to the spectators beyond the limits of ice surface -- not a problem for either Chan or Plushenko. But also if the performance is projected mainly to the judge's side of the arena, with significantly less attention paid to the opposite sides and the ends of the ice -- which has historically been a weakness of Plushenko's program construction.

Pattern and Ice Coverage refers to patterns of travel around the ice surface -- does the skater make big curves in both directions, as well as smaller curves and straight lines for variety? Surprising changes of direction? Does the skater visit all parts of the ice surface rather than favoring some parts and ignoring others? Are the jumps and spins spread out to various points on the ice or do they tend to be placed the same, often predictable, locations? This is one of Chan's biggest strengths, and not one of Plushenko's.

Phrasing and FormI think Chan and Plushenko are both good at this, although in different ways -- Chan's phrasing tends to be more subtle and Plushenko's more in your face. I'd have to go back and analyze specific programs to see how much is an effect of the program structure and how much of each skater's immediate reactions to the music, which would fall more under the Interpretation component.

Originality of Purpose, Movement, and Design This could include more large-scale originality in terms of music choice, program theme, etc. It could also involve smaller choices such as variations to elements, unusual ways of getting into or out of an element or getting from one point on the ice to another. I think Chan is significantly better at the small-scale originality, and neither of these two guys stand out for me on large-scale originality, though they each have had their moments.

I.e., the judges are looking at a lot of different things in evaluating this component.



I don't even want to compare spins and interpretation. Just FOR ONCE watch Plushenko lp from RN.:biggrin:

I think Plushenko's interpretation of the music tends to be significantly better than his choreography. ;)
 
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