Plushenko: Chan Does Not Deserve World Title

Olympia said:

It was a truly amazing run of competitions when Yagudin and Plushenko were both competing at or near their peaks. It was like a multi-year Battle of the Brians: glorious skating everywhere one looked. One key element in the skating of both of them was their training under Mishin. Gorgeous, immaculate jumps, and yet each somehow developed his own style as well. In terms only of style, my tendency is to prefer Yagudin, because he has an unadorned fluidity, whereas Plushy tends to be more florid and exuberant. On the other hand, Plushy has an advantage in his size, because he's long and lean, which gives him an elegance and command that doesn't come as easily to the smaller, more compact Yagudin. But Yagudin's more inward approach gives him a different kind of command. In a way, they remind me of Nureyev and Baryshnikov. Plushy is of course the more dramatic Nureyev, whereas Yagudin, like Baryshnikov, has that naturalness that makes one feel he's just strolling across the ice, and yet at the same time you can't take your eyes off him.

In a way, Plushenko's skating says, "Look at me!" and one is always rewarded by looking. Whereas Yagudin's skating says, "I'm looking at you." Who could resist that?

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How could we resist it? Loved your take on these two legendary skaters; Evgeni and Alexei. to Olympia! When it comes down to these two, geniuses on ice, how could we ever prefer or deny one over the other! :yes:

I agree originally Ten was an artist but not so much now or at least this year. Not sure what happened but his programs did not show some of those flashes of artistry.

pangtongfan said:

2000 Worlds- Plushenko had his worst meltdown ever in the LP. I have no idea what happened there.
2001 Worlds- Yagudin was injured and didnt skate well, was gifted a bit to even get silver.
2002 Olympics- Plushenko was injured with a bad groin injury and couldnt skate anywhere near his best. Some thought he was gifted a bit to take silver too.
2002 Worlds- Plushenko missed with his Olympics groin injury.

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2000 Worlds: Yes,look at that! What a drama!! He did mistakes and he finished 4th! and look at Yagudin! so exciting! I'm not a Patrick hater, but where is this excitement in the competitions?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdFeekX2e7Y really a bad skating... poor Evgeni and he beat Alexei on ECH with a perfect skating..

Plushy:

"I am in France on the World Championships.
It is the year 2000 and I am 17. I go there only to win. The season is successful, I am the first at the Russian and European championships. I already have bronze and silver from previous Worlds. So now I want only the gold.
I skate the short program in France and I am currently on second place. I realize I have all the chances to rise on the first step of the podium! The adrenalin rises excessively.
I cannot sleep at night, I keep turning in bed. In front of my eyes I see one and the same picture – I finish the program, rise on the podium and there it is – the gold! I fall asleep early in the morning.
Next day. Long program. It is my turn. I go to make the quadruple – and I fail. I go to make a second quadruple – I fail again. There remains only one thought in my head – “I have already the bronze and the silver, I need the first place”.

And I decide to make a third quadruple. I fail again!
At this point I realized I have ruined all. I will not be even among the first three. With such thoughts I skate the rest of the program without any wish at all.

There, at the Worlds in France I became the fourth. At the first step of the podium, where I had imagined only myself, stays my main rival Alexey Yagudin.

I started to make analysis of the failure. There were enough reasons. My lot was bad. I had to start the training at six in the morning. For me to have enough sleep is one of the main factors for victory. I went on the ice to train, but my body was still sleeping. The qualification I skated at ten and I am not used to compete at that time at all. To give my best at serious competitions I have to skate later. Otherwise I feel uncomfortable. And why did I not have enough sleep? Because I was overexcited.
I went to the championships only for a victory. For me the second and the third places were a failure. And it was a psychological barrier, which I could not jump over, the adrenalin was excessive. I could not carry it through, I over burnt. It was a flagrant error, childishness. Perhaps at that time I could not yet skate as a champion. Now I know, when I couldn’t make the jump, I had to stop thinking about it. If you cannot be a champion now, you can be a prize-winner, which is very good too."

in 2002 SLC Plushy wasn't injured. That was 2005, before Torino. He withdrawn on Moscow WCH. And I'm sure he didn't compete on WCH 2002, because his soul was ill.

Plushy :
"Later, after the Olympics I watched many times the recording of my program and my falling down at the quadruple. After all, I was in a perfect form. I have never fallen down in such a way. At any case I had to turn this way. Till now I have the feeling that some strange force dragged me down. What was that?
I was standing at the second step of the podium feeling a loser. After the end of the ceremony I went to my room and had a sound sleep. But in the middle of the night I woke up and I could hardly breathe. I grasped. I tried to stand up, but I could not feel my legs. I do not remember how I reached Mishin’s room. He called a doctor. I had a high temperature – about 40 oC / 104oF/.
No one could tell the reason for my condition. They made every possible analysis and they were all normal. Many doctors examined me and did not find anything. All shrugged their shoulders and could not understand why I had such a high temperature. All of them said that perhaps it was emotional overpressure. After four days I woke up and I was healthy again. Perhaps these were nerves, emotions, which ruin the system, or perhaps it was something completely different…..
I lost five kilos. This is impossible. Before the Olympics I tried hard to lose at least a kilo, but no diets helped."

What can i say? I just love this guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnEDdoFew24

plushyfan said:

Plushy :
"Later, after the Olympics I watched many times the recording of my program and my falling down at the quadruple. After all, I was in a perfect form. I have never fallen down in such a way. At any case I had to turn this way. Till now I have the feeling that some strange force dragged me down. What was that?

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2002 Olympics meant to be Yagudin's. Some people say it was Yagudin's sport psychologist who did the jinx.

Bluebonnet said:

2002 Olympics meant to be Yagudin's. Some people say it was Yagudin's sport psychologist who did the jinx.

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Yes that's true. For example Mishin, he really believes that. He is an engineer and professor at the University of St. Petersburg but he thinks.

Rudolf Zagainov, an infamous sports psychologist. His wife an Olympic champion cyclist killed herself, and the police launched an investigation, the basic version - incitement to suicide"
http://www.kp.ru/daily/23929/69653/

But Plushenko was actually held up in SP.

Bluebonnet said:

But Plushenko was actually held up in SP.

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I don't think. :no: Plushy also said later he was deconcentrated in that moment.

plushyfan said:

I don't think. :no:

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Not surprised.

Any way. I was very happy with the final placement of that competition though.

Bluebonnet said:

Not surprised.

Any way. I was very happy with the final placement of that competition though.

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I was less happy , but I thought it was a fair result.

pangtongfan said:

Plushenko and Yagudin are both legends and will go down as far greater skaters and champions with far greater legacies than Chan ever will. Lets leave it at that and stop comparing the two gods. Gods are to be admired, not compared anyway.

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Yagudin never reached pick point and never matured in his skating. Look again at his last two programs from 2002, that is a fact. He stopped competitive skating at age 22, too young to be a god or legend, but he was lucky that didn’t have real competition, except from young Plushenko.
And yes, please don't compare them.

Yagudin 2002 was very good skater, but nothing close to Plushenko 2013

bestskate8 said:

Yagudin never reached pick point and never matured in his skating. Look again at his last two programs from 2002, that is a fact. He stopped competitive skating at age 22, too young to be a god or legend, but he was lucky that didn’t have real competition, except from young Plushenko.
And yes, please don't compare them.

Yagudin 2002 was very god skater, but nothing close to Plushenko 2013

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Just wondering if you really know what you're talking about?

bestskate8 said:

Yagudin never reached pick point and never matured in his skating. Look again at his last two programs from 2002, that is a fact. He stopped competitive skating at age 22, too young to be a god or legend, but he was lucky that didn’t have real competition, except from young Plushenko.
And yes, please don't compare them.

Yagudin 2002 was very good skater, but nothing close to Plushenko 2013

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You're joking, right? Since when a skater's peak is at 30 y.o? LOL, this is funny!

ciocio said:

You're joking, right? Since when a skater's peak is at 30 y.o? LOL, this is funny!

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I think he/she is either joking or being sarcastic, or just try to stir things a bit up for further discussion (not in a good way...). Let's just ignore this comments

plushyfan said:

When I read that Plushenko isn't an artistry skater, I go to the Youtube and watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEJXkfMYTX4 And I calm down..I'm right, he is. This program and skating "a piece of eternity."

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That is a technically superb performance, but it's not an artistically superb performance. Most of the choreographic is basic skating with two-footed skating, simple one-foot glides, 3-turns and mohawks and pumping counter-clockwise around the rink. The only time he exhibits footwork is, well, during his footwork. As for expression, he has moments of expression but not while he's actually skating -- only while he's at standstills. A clean, well-performed skate from one of the favourites, especially if they skate last, will often get 6.0's regardless of how good the actual program content is.

I don't take away from how technically good that performance was (save for the spins which were a bit sloppy and travelling), but for comparison, Plushenko's FS at the beginning of last year was light years ahead of his Nijinsky program in terms of artistry and content.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

That is a technically superb performance, but it's not an artistically superb performance. Most of the choreographic is basic skating with two-footed skating, simple one-foot glides, 3-turns and mohawks and pumping counter-clockwise around the rink. The only time he exhibits footwork is, well, during his footwork. As for expression, he has moments of expression but not while he's actually skating -- only while he's at standstills. A clean, well-performed skate from one of the favourites, especially if they skate last, will often get 6.0's regardless of how good the actual program content is.

I don't take away from how technically good that performance was (save for the spins which were a bit sloppy and travelling), but for comparison, Plushenko's FS at the beginning of last year was light years ahead of his Nijinsky program in terms of artistry and content.

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Your analysis shows exactly how the artistry is regarded in different people's eyes.

Maybe that should be its own thread?:

What Is Artistry? How Do You Define It?

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

That is a technically superb performance, but it's not an artistically superb performance. Most of the choreographic is basic skating with two-footed skating, simple one-foot glides, 3-turns and mohawks and pumping counter-clockwise around the rink. The only time he exhibits footwork is, well, during his footwork. As for expression, he has moments of expression but not while he's actually skating -- only while he's at standstills. A clean, well-performed skate from one of the favourites, especially if they skate last, will often get 6.0's regardless of how good the actual program content is.

I don't take away from how technically good that performance was (save for the spins which were a bit sloppy and travelling), but for comparison, Plushenko's FS at the beginning of last year was light years ahead of his Nijinsky program in terms of artistry and content.

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Geez, I count myself one lucky fan when I get to see a skate of this caliber, both technically and artistically. I would say that Plushenko was expressing himself artistically in this skate - how many people can give a superb interpretive skate of a famous Russian ballet dancer on the ice!

skaterdelight said:

Geez, I count myself one lucky fan when I get to see a skate of this caliber, both technically and artistically. I would say that Plushenko was expressing himself artistically in this skate - how many people can give a superb interpretive skate of a famous Russian ballet dancer on the ice!

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Sorry, I agree that he is giving artistry. But not 6.0 worthy artistry because his artistry is not incorporated into his actual skating. He's basically jumping (very well, mind you), then stroking around, then stopping, THEN emoting (or gliding on one foot and giving expression). Artistry isn't integrated into his skating movements. He's kind of pulling a Baiul... he's basically jumping well and then being dramatic at stand stills. Under CoP he gets marks for Performance (mayyybe interpretation), but his skating skills, transitions, and choreography are subpar. If you cut a video without the jumps and footwork sequence in there, there would be almost nothing complex, interesting, or original to that program. Even that Biellmann spiral is done so strained and mechanically as if he's just thinking about the next element.

LRK said:

Maybe that should be its own thread?:

What Is Artistry? How Do You Define It?

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We've periodically done a thread like this, and it's always rewarding. We never agree, of course, but people come up with some marvelous ways to articulate the concept.

Olympia said:

We've periodically done a thread like this, and it's always rewarding. We never agree, of course, but people come up with some marvelous ways to articulate the concept.

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Of course, artistry is open to interpretation. The feeling that Plushenko's program leaves you is maybe a 6.0-worthy performance, but to me artistry has to be integrated into the skating, otherwise programs feel disjointed. Like you get all your jumps over with and then all of a sudden start thinking about getting into the character of the program. It's really hard to put on an athletic show but also create a performance of emotions and expression, but that's what makes figure skating so hard.

And it depends on the skater too... skaters like Slutskaya, Plushenko and early Shen/Zhao are powerful skaters with big elements so they skate to more dramatic music and do "strong" artistry, exhibiting attack and confidence. When they go clean and have big elements, their programs' "artistry" is the sense of awe you get from cleanly executing these huge, difficult elements and a sense of "I own the ice"... which is a different artistry you get from skaters like Takahashi, Czisny, and later Shen/Zhao who are softer, more lyrical skaters whose programs' artistry give you a sense of expression and emotion integrated into their programs and movements. In one case, the artistry is that of technical skaters who perform big difficulty, and the other is artistic skaters who get into a program and really interpret the music. And then of course you have the inbetweens - Kim, Yagudin, Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze, Chan (when he's on) - who exhibit excellent technical ability but still maintain a lyrical quality to their skating. Obviously, better artistry is more desired by most people, but I do appreciate exceedingly difficult technical performances as it emphasizes the sport aspect of figure skating.