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Thread: Plushenko: Chan Does Not Deserve World Title

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    It is wrong to bring Sandhu into this because he won because plushenko did too many combos.

    The continued belief that none of plushenkos wins had anything to do with being talented in artistry in any way is just too much nonsense to Continue to engage with!! Like in 2004 he won worlds because of his artistic magnificence. He had technical errors there.
    That was not the point I was trying to make. I was saying that Plushenko's consistency was unrivalled, so only an artistic skater could come close to beating him (or even beat him in the case of Sandhu and Yagudin).

    I'm also not saying that Plushenko isn't artistic. He has good speed and ice presence. But his jump consistency, not content, is what translates to higher artistic marks. You strip away all the jumps and footwork sequences (for which he seems to save his energy, instead of transitions and choreography between jumps), then you're left with not much. I mean, he's been trained to do that under 6.0. It doesn't matter how you skate the rest of the program if you can win by landing every jump so why invest the time to do inbetween stuff? And with no skater like Yagudin bringing the same technical game, he can afford to just make it about the jumps and elements. Obviously, against Yagudin, he would often lose because he's not a predominantly artistic skater and he's competing against somebody executing the same jumps with similar consistency.

    Also, at the 2004 Worlds, Plushenko didn't win on the basis of his artistry, seeing as how he was still scored over Joubert and Lindemann in the technical elements (mostly 5.9's for TE). He was best on the day though, so of course he did get great artistic scores too.

  2. #182
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    You are saying plushenko isn't artistic. You are saying his artistic scores come from his jumps! You are saying there is nothing like choreo or in between jumps but there is!!! You just don't agree that it is choreo or in. You are saying it's crap but it is ch and in!! I may be blending anti plushenko pOsts here but using hands and your face and hips and skates like plushenko did in 2010 with kind of running in place is all ch and in and all apart of the ch! And in 6.0 and najinski he did tons of stuff between jumps in a ch and in type way but you say all the artistic marks and pcs come from jumps or arms during step sequences. There is just no way to argue he did not not deserve 0.0 in presentation and 0 in pcs and how his 6.0 and 8 and 9 all comes from jumps. This is too high of a mountain to climb because what he believes is ch and in and what judges gave him 6.0 and 8's or 9's for cannot be justified other than as a reward for jumps to you.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Obviously, against Yagudin, he would often lose because he's not a predominantly artistic skater and he's competing against somebody executing the same jumps with similar consistency.
    You are wrong: Yagudin never been Russian Champion!!, Kulik and after Plush always beat him, despite the fact Plushy almost 3 years younger than Yagudin. So when Yagudin retirted, Plushy was only 19. !!! It not was Plushy's peak time. Of course, Yag beat Plushy when Plu was 15-16( he was second in WCH) in international competitions. But in 2000 (Plu was 17) beat Yagudin in ECH ( Plushy's points and Yag's reaction http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byMrwtOhPcc clearly won! every judges put him on the first place ), but lost in WCH( he was 4th), because he fell!!! Plush got higher marks for his presentation like Yagudin, when they were 15-16-17 yo...I'm sure you can't believe it, but this is true...check it

    1997 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrwXutDBuuk Yag's first WCH, he was 17 and was 3th
    1998 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7h-utC6kPY Plu's first WCH, he was 15 and was 3th
    look at their scores

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    FYI, the ISU training video using Plushenko as the "model" existed since at least 2008. Unlike another poster who falsely stated that the ISU only started to circulating the video after Plushenko made his return in 2009-10 season as part of a conspiracy to undermine him. At the Vancouver Olympics, Plushenko did not do a 3 jump combo as he could have. And had he add a mere double toe at the end of any of his jump combo, he would have won the Gold - it is that simple.
    What a trash , keep talking, get real please.

    ****

    It must be a joke Laysachek or Chan artistick skaters, those are don`t have anything natural, simple

    On the other hand, Denis Ten even when he was very young, one could see huge artistic talent! Now he is real! nothing close to Chan, never to artificial Laysachek!

    It is easy to put Denis Ten and Plushenko on the same legue of born talent, but not Chan not even mention Laysacheck, who both are artificial well trained judges "picks"

    People can talk about Plushenko as much trash as they want, but it wont change anything, because fundamentals are set by nature! Watch videos from Euro 2012 in Shefield, that is prove!
    Writing all this trash about Plushenko doesnt change, that HE IS`REAL in Sichi 2014 fighting for GOLD!

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I was being hypothetical.
    The "hypothetical" is just trolling with math that CoP made almost legitimate. Yet even this requred some evidence to present. When people say Chan has a multiple falls cushion, it's based on his history of winning with falls. When Plu wins RN with multiple falls, then your hypothetical claims will become valid. But I have a news for you- it never happened.
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Obviously, against Yagudin, he would often lose because he's not a predominantly artistic skater and he's competing against somebody executing the same jumps with similar consistency.
    Obviously, and you post proves that, the only consistent place Yagudin could take in fs history is the Plu's rival. Otherwise- no one gets remembered the guy.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    As fun as it is watching people bash Chan, he has 5 world medals (including 3 titles), 2 GPF wins, and the World record score. I agree that he's been overscored in the past, and isn't the most consistent skater (not that I can name many of today's top skaters who are), but to try to tear him down to being just a ho-hum skater is jealousy at its best, and downright delusion at its worst.
    More than Chan is at stake here. Yes, Chan is perhaps the best skater. And yes, he has won 3 World Titles. But some of us who are not Chan haters (I am from Toronto and he is one of my favorite skaters) really have a problem with his having won the worlds in London (and in Nice). One is getting the impression that how he skates doesn't matter and how good the other skaters skate doesn't matter either. Why train? Why compete? Why watch it? If this happens again, only at the Olympics, it is going to set skating back as far as the Salt Lake City skating scandal did. For the sake of the sport, everyone who is honest has to see that there is a problem and that it is a big one. Plushenko was over the top in his comments about Skate Canada and ISF, but there is definitely something that needs to be fixed.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    1997 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrwXutDBuuk Yag's first WCH, he was 17 and was 3th
    1998 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7h-utC6kPY Plu's first WCH, he was 15 and was 3th
    look at their scores
    Wow, even at the age of 15/17, they were so amaging! And to Alexei's 3A-3T. Thanks a lot plusyfan for posting.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    You are wrong: Yagudin never been Russian Champion!!, Kulik and after Plush always beat him, despite the fact Plushy almost 3 years younger than Yagudin. So when Yagudin retirted, Plushy was only 19. !!! It not was Plushy's peak time. Of course, Yag beat Plushy when Plu was 15-16( he was second in WCH) in international competitions. But in 2000 (Plu was 17) beat Yagudin in ECH ( Plushy's points and Yag's reaction http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byMrwtOhPcc clearly won! every judges put him on the first place ), but lost in WCH( he was 4th), because he fell!!! Plush got higher marks for his presentation like Yagudin, when they were 15-16-17 yo...I'm sure you can't believe it, but this is true...check it

    1997 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrwXutDBuuk Yag's first WCH, he was 17 and was 3th
    1998 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7h-utC6kPY Plu's first WCH, he was 15 and was 3th
    look at their scores
    Oh, man, will you look at those guys? Astonishing. (Forgive me for this language geek moment, by the way: It's 3rd. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and then all the numbers after that take a th: 4th, 5th, etc. I can't offer any skating expertise as you all can, so copyediting is my sole contribution to the thread.)

    I don't see how any of these amazing skaters suffers in comparison with the others. Russia contributed three formidable skaters one after the other with Kulik, Yagudin, and Plushenko. Interestingly all of them are still skating, though Yagudin is limited by his hip problems. And Kulik's jumps are still textbook after fifteen years. Pretty impressive. They've all contributed mightily to skating, both as sport and as art.

    Thanks for sharing these great videos.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    I don't see how any of these amazing skaters suffers in comparison with the others. Russia contributed three formidable skaters one after the other with Kulik, Yagudin, and Plushenko. Interestingly all of them are still skating, though Yagudin is limited by his hip problems. And Kulik's jumps are still textbook after fifteen years. Pretty impressive. They've all contributed mightily to skating, both as sport and as art.
    And don't forget Alexander Abt, the shining star born too early or too late and with the misfortune of coming to his own peak at the same time they did!

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaeljones View Post
    More than Chan is at stake here. Yes, Chan is perhaps the best skater. And yes, he has won 3 World Titles. But some of us who are not Chan haters (I am from Toronto and he is one of my favorite skaters) really have a problem with his having won the worlds in London (and in Nice). One is getting the impression that how he skates doesn't matter and how good the other skaters skate doesn't matter either. Why train? Why compete? Why watch it? If this happens again, only at the Olympics, it is going to set skating back as far as the Salt Lake City skating scandal did. For the sake of the sport, everyone who is honest has to see that there is a problem and that it is a big one. Plushenko was over the top in his comments about Skate Canada and ISF, but there is definitely something that needs to be fixed.
    Oh I agree that his London win was unmerited (and Nice, to a lesser extent since everyone made errors, but still, sure). But under the judging system, he's tailor made his programs to maximize his points in the event of errors. His base value is higher than most of the men, and his skating skills and choreography is often superior. Is that justification for making up for 3 or 4 falls? No, but it mitigates the severity of errors compared to skaters who can't make up for errors in the presentation marks or don't have the same levels/jump content; and usually his jumps are fully rotated and he rarely pops jumps, whereas some have difficulty with that. Plus he's practically mastered the quad to good consistency (e.g. his quads in his Worlds FS garnered 30 points). I agree too that what happened at Worlds would be horrible at Sochi. If anything, it's a good thing Ten competed and skated as well as he did, otherwise Chan would be the clear winner anyways and nobody would be questioning the result.

    My point was that it's silly to debase Chan as just an average run of the mill skater because he makes errors (errors that others make, mind you). Especially when he has put out clean performances (of course, then haters who invariably have criticism and are never satisfied will be like "oh well, he went clean but his skating isn't all that special").

    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    You are wrong: Yagudin never been Russian Champion!!
    I knew somebody would bring up Russian nationals. That's why I said *often* as Plushenko lost to Yagudin more often than he beat him, and in several big ticket events too. If both skated clean though, Yagudin would invariably beat Plushenko, since he's a better overall skater. However due to Plushenko's amazing consistency and Yagudin's great but not amazing consistency, Yagudin would make errors and lose to a clean Plushenko (as he should have).

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by karne View Post
    And don't forget Alexander Abt, the shining star born too early or too late and with the misfortune of coming to his own peak at the same time they did!
    Here is an interesting comparison. This is 2002 Europeans, "won" by Alexei Yagudin. Yagudin made major errors on five of his jumping passes, including his two opening quads and his first triple Axel. He doubled two other jumps.

    Alexander Abt, playing the Denis Ten role, went clean (one double foot) with 8 triples and a quad, as well as superior spins (but less speed and showmanship) to finish second.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRqGWLz44fM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdgAIamDJgg

  12. #192
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    Yagudin should not have won the 2002 European title, another terrible decision at around the start of figure skatings plunge to zero popularity. That said he did not skate anywhere near as badly as Chan in the Worlds LP this year. No falls, only one somewhat disruptive stumble out of jump, more somewhat successful jumps than Chan, and he never let go of the performance so it was much better artistically than Chan who began to look panicked and scared in the 2nd half of the program as the mistakes piled up (not to mention even at his best Chan doesnt skate with half the emotion, musical interpretation, or performance quality of Yagudin). Abt is also not he skater of Ten at his best, he had jerky crossovers, wasnt polished, and his jump technique was wierd. Ten and Abt were both inconsistent skaters, but Ten at his best has great jumps and is smooth as butter, alot like Chan is, so a way better skater than Abt. People liked Abt mostly since he was cute, and he was a sympathetic figure since he had so many injuries.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    When they skated at their best, Yagudin would consistently beat him because he is artistically a better skater, and one of the only ones able to match Plushenko's technical ability at the time they skated.
    Yagudin was a more mature and polished skater when they were skating together. No matter how technically brilliant or consistent a 15-16 y.o boy is , he's still a boy. And believe me I'm very objective because I was and still am Yagudin's fan. Of course I liked Plushy too and everything he did after Yagudin's retirement made me appreciate him more and more. I don't understand why people can't accept they were both great.
    Plushenko is risking his health only to skate in the 4th Olympics, let's show some respect, ok?

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Oh I agree that his London win was unmerited (and Nice, to a lesser extent since everyone made errors, but still, sure). But under the judging system, he's tailor made his programs to maximize his points in the event of errors. His base value is higher than most of the men, and his skating skills and choreography is often superior. Is that justification for making up for 3 or 4 falls? No, but it mitigates the severity of errors compared to skaters who can't make up for errors in the presentation marks or don't have the same levels/jump content; and usually his jumps are fully rotated and he rarely pops jumps, whereas some have difficulty with that. Plus he's practically mastered the quad to good consistency (e.g. his quads in his Worlds FS garnered 30 points). I agree too that what happened at Worlds would be horrible at Sochi. If anything, it's a good thing Ten competed and skated as well as he did, otherwise Chan would be the clear winner anyways and nobody would be questioning the result.

    My point was that it's silly to debase Chan as just an average run of the mill skater because he makes errors (errors that others make, mind you). Especially when he has put out clean performances (of course, then haters who invariably have criticism and are never satisfied will be like "oh well, he went clean but his skating isn't all that special").



    I knew somebody would bring up Russian nationals. That's why I said *often* as Plushenko lost to Yagudin more often than he beat him, and in several big ticket events too. If both skated clean though, Yagudin would invariably beat Plushenko, since he's a better overall skater. However due to Plushenko's amazing consistency and Yagudin's great but not amazing consistency, Yagudin would make errors and lose to a clean Plushenko (as he should have).
    Well argued, well presented, I agree. I didn't even look at the name because all our biases are so clear at least for most. But if us die hards and blow hards don't understand the scoring system and why Chan won - I see it though - then how can we expect the rest of the world? There is no perfect marking system and those who liek the mraking system probably means their skater did well under the new system.

  15. #195
    Gotta Have Music iluvtodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Here is an interesting comparison. This is 2002 Europeans, "won" by Alexei Yagudin. Yagudin made major errors on five of his jumping passes, including his two opening quads and his first triple Axel. He doubled two other jumps.

    Alexander Abt, playing the Denis Ten role, went clean (one double foot) with 8 triples and a quad, as well as superior spins (but less speed and showmanship) to finish second.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRqGWLz44fM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdgAIamDJgg
    While I feel that Patrick was overmarked in the free skate, I still blame it on the judges & the judging system.

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