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Thread: Plushenko: Chan Does Not Deserve World Title

  1. #196
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    First of all, thanks for your patience with my terrible English. Thank you Olympia.

    Quote Originally Posted by deedee1 View Post
    Wow, even at the age of 15/17, they were so amaging! And to Alexei's 3A-3T. Thanks a lot plusyfan for posting.
    My pleasure

    Quote Originally Posted by ciocio View Post
    Yagudin was a more mature and polished skater when they were skating together. No matter how technically brilliant or consistent a 15-16 y.o boy is , he's still a boy. And believe me I'm very objective because I was and still am Yagudin's fan. Of course I liked Plushy too and everything he did after Yagudin's retirement made me appreciate him more and more. I don't understand why people can't accept they were both great.
    Plushenko is risking his health only to skate in the 4th Olympics, let's show some respect, ok?
    Of course, this is the most important factor Plushy was a kid when they were skating together. This is often overlooked. It was a miracle that he was able to be rival of Yagudin .

  2. #197
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    CanadianSkaterGuy

    "I knew somebody would bring up Russian nationals. That's why I said *often* as Plushenko lost to Yagudin more often than he beat him, and in several big ticket events too. If both skated clean though, Yagudin would invariably beat Plushenko, since he's a better overall skater. However due to Plushenko's amazing consistency and Yagudin's great but not amazing consistency, Yagudin would make errors and lose to a clean Plushenko (as he should have)."

    The opposite is also true. Yagudin never beat the perfect Plushenko. (It probably would have occured in SLC. Alexei was perfect, and he had two amazing programs.)
    Alexei never beat Plushy because of the presentation marks or with a big difference, which showed, that Alexei is a better skater. As we said, you don't forget the age difference.



    When I read that Plushenko isn't an artistry skater, I go to the Youtube and watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEJXkfMYTX4 And I calm down..I'm right, he is. This program and skating "a piece of eternity."

  3. #198
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    The closest I ever saw to both skaters skating perfectly was the 2001 Grand Prix final where Yagudins only mistake was putting his foot down slightly on the 2nd quad toe, and Yagudin lost to Plushenko 5 judges to 2. Those 5 judges all gave Plushenko 5.9, 5.9 before Yagudin even skated, incidating Plushenko was likely winning even had Yagudin not had that very slight error and been absolutely perfect. At the 99 Russian Nationals (or some year around there) Yagudin was perfect and lose to Plushenko with a mistake, and that happened again at the fall 1999 Masters in the U.S. It is certainly not true a clean Plushenko could not beat a clean Yagudin. They were very much on par even both skating cleanly in the judges eyes. Yagudin usually only won when Plushenko made more mistakes as well.

    Plushenko in some ways was overall the dominant skater of 2000-2002 more than Yagudin as well. Plushenko lost only 3 times (granted 2 were the 2000 Worlds and 2002 Olympics, huge ones) but Yagudin came out on top more where it really mattered at Olympics and Worlds. Strangely though fluke occurences kept either from being at their best at Worlds or Olympics any of that period, and their finest meetings were always throughout the season:

    2000 Worlds- Plushenko had his worst meltdown ever in the LP. I have no idea what happened there.
    2001 Worlds- Yagudin was injured and didnt skate well, was gifted a bit to even get silver.
    2002 Olympics- Plushenko was injured with a bad groin injury and couldnt skate anywhere near his best. Some thought he was gifted a bit to take silver too.
    2002 Worlds- Plushenko missed with his Olympics groin injury.

  4. #199
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    And if I recall correctly, Yagudin had the flu in the 1998 Olympics and came in something like fifth.

    But at least each of these two guys won an OGM. Look at poor Kurt, and he's clearly a stupendous skater as well. I think it's up to the fans to cherish them despite such glitches in their records at key moments. They're certainly worth the effort!

    It was a truly amazing run of competitions when Yagudin and Plushenko were both competing at or near their peaks. It was like a multi-year Battle of the Brians: glorious skating everywhere one looked. One key element in the skating of both of them was their training under Mishin. Gorgeous, immaculate jumps, and yet each somehow developed his own style as well. In terms only of style, my tendency is to prefer Yagudin, because he has an unadorned fluidity, whereas Plushy tends to be more florid and exuberant. On the other hand, Plushy has an advantage in his size, because he's long and lean, which gives him an elegance and command that doesn't come as easily to the smaller, more compact Yagudin. But Yagudin's more inward approach gives him a different kind of command. In a way, they remind me of Nureyev and Baryshnikov. Plushy is of course the more dramatic Nureyev, whereas Yagudin, like Baryshnikov, has that naturalness that makes one feel he's just strolling across the ice, and yet at the same time you can't take your eyes off him.

    In a way, Plushenko's skating says, "Look at me!" and one is always rewarded by looking. Whereas Yagudin's skating says, "I'm looking at you." Who could resist that?

  5. #200
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    Plushenko and Yagudin are both legends and will go down as far greater skaters and champions with far greater legacies than Chan ever will. Lets leave it at that and stop comparing the two gods. Gods are to be admired, not compared anyway.

  6. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    It was a truly amazing run of competitions when Yagudin and Plushenko were both competing at or near their peaks. It was like a multi-year Battle of the Brians: glorious skating everywhere one looked. One key element in the skating of both of them was their training under Mishin. Gorgeous, immaculate jumps, and yet each somehow developed his own style as well. In terms only of style, my tendency is to prefer Yagudin, because he has an unadorned fluidity, whereas Plushy tends to be more florid and exuberant. On the other hand, Plushy has an advantage in his size, because he's long and lean, which gives him an elegance and command that doesn't come as easily to the smaller, more compact Yagudin. But Yagudin's more inward approach gives him a different kind of command. In a way, they remind me of Nureyev and Baryshnikov. Plushy is of course the more dramatic Nureyev, whereas Yagudin, like Baryshnikov, has that naturalness that makes one feel he's just strolling across the ice, and yet at the same time you can't take your eyes off him.

    In a way, Plushenko's skating says, "Look at me!" and one is always rewarded by looking. Whereas Yagudin's skating says, "I'm looking at you." Who could resist that?
    How could we resist it? Loved your take on these two legendary skaters; Evgeni and Alexei. to Olympia! When it comes down to these two, geniuses on ice, how could we ever prefer or deny one over the other!

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    I agree originally Ten was an artist but not so much now or at least this year. Not sure what happened but his programs did not show some of those flashes of artistry.

  8. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    2000 Worlds- Plushenko had his worst meltdown ever in the LP. I have no idea what happened there.
    2001 Worlds- Yagudin was injured and didnt skate well, was gifted a bit to even get silver.
    2002 Olympics- Plushenko was injured with a bad groin injury and couldnt skate anywhere near his best. Some thought he was gifted a bit to take silver too.
    2002 Worlds- Plushenko missed with his Olympics groin injury.
    2000 Worlds: Yes,look at that! What a drama!! He did mistakes and he finished 4th! and look at Yagudin! so exciting! I'm not a Patrick hater, but where is this excitement in the competitions?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdFeekX2e7Y really a bad skating... poor Evgeni and he beat Alexei on ECH with a perfect skating..

    Plushy:

    "I am in France on the World Championships.
    It is the year 2000 and I am 17. I go there only to win. The season is successful, I am the first at the Russian and European championships. I already have bronze and silver from previous Worlds. So now I want only the gold.
    I skate the short program in France and I am currently on second place. I realize I have all the chances to rise on the first step of the podium! The adrenalin rises excessively.
    I cannot sleep at night, I keep turning in bed. In front of my eyes I see one and the same picture – I finish the program, rise on the podium and there it is – the gold! I fall asleep early in the morning.
    Next day. Long program. It is my turn. I go to make the quadruple – and I fail. I go to make a second quadruple – I fail again. There remains only one thought in my head – “I have already the bronze and the silver, I need the first place”.

    And I decide to make a third quadruple. I fail again!
    At this point I realized I have ruined all. I will not be even among the first three. With such thoughts I skate the rest of the program without any wish at all.

    There, at the Worlds in France I became the fourth. At the first step of the podium, where I had imagined only myself, stays my main rival Alexey Yagudin.

    I started to make analysis of the failure. There were enough reasons. My lot was bad. I had to start the training at six in the morning. For me to have enough sleep is one of the main factors for victory. I went on the ice to train, but my body was still sleeping. The qualification I skated at ten and I am not used to compete at that time at all. To give my best at serious competitions I have to skate later. Otherwise I feel uncomfortable. And why did I not have enough sleep? Because I was overexcited.
    I went to the championships only for a victory. For me the second and the third places were a failure. And it was a psychological barrier, which I could not jump over, the adrenalin was excessive. I could not carry it through, I over burnt. It was a flagrant error, childishness. Perhaps at that time I could not yet skate as a champion. Now I know, when I couldn’t make the jump, I had to stop thinking about it. If you cannot be a champion now, you can be a prize-winner, which is very good too."

    in 2002 SLC Plushy wasn't injured. That was 2005, before Torino. He withdrawn on Moscow WCH. And I'm sure he didn't compete on WCH 2002, because his soul was ill.

    Plushy :
    "Later, after the Olympics I watched many times the recording of my program and my falling down at the quadruple. After all, I was in a perfect form. I have never fallen down in such a way. At any case I had to turn this way. Till now I have the feeling that some strange force dragged me down. What was that?
    I was standing at the second step of the podium feeling a loser. After the end of the ceremony I went to my room and had a sound sleep. But in the middle of the night I woke up and I could hardly breathe. I grasped. I tried to stand up, but I could not feel my legs. I do not remember how I reached Mishin’s room. He called a doctor. I had a high temperature – about 40 oC / 104oF/.
    No one could tell the reason for my condition. They made every possible analysis and they were all normal. Many doctors examined me and did not find anything. All shrugged their shoulders and could not understand why I had such a high temperature. All of them said that perhaps it was emotional overpressure. After four days I woke up and I was healthy again. Perhaps these were nerves, emotions, which ruin the system, or perhaps it was something completely different…..
    I lost five kilos. This is impossible. Before the Olympics I tried hard to lose at least a kilo, but no diets helped."

    What can i say? I just love this guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnEDdoFew24

  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    Plushy :
    "Later, after the Olympics I watched many times the recording of my program and my falling down at the quadruple. After all, I was in a perfect form. I have never fallen down in such a way. At any case I had to turn this way. Till now I have the feeling that some strange force dragged me down. What was that?
    2002 Olympics meant to be Yagudin's. Some people say it was Yagudin's sport psychologist who did the jinx.

  10. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    2002 Olympics meant to be Yagudin's. Some people say it was Yagudin's sport psychologist who did the jinx.
    Yes that's true. For example Mishin, he really believes that. He is an engineer and professor at the University of St. Petersburg but he thinks.

    Rudolf Zagainov, an infamous sports psychologist. His wife an Olympic champion cyclist killed herself, and the police launched an investigation, the basic version - incitement to suicide"
    http://www.kp.ru/daily/23929/69653/

  11. #206
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    But Plushenko was actually held up in SP.

  12. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    But Plushenko was actually held up in SP.
    I don't think. Plushy also said later he was deconcentrated in that moment.

  13. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    I don't think.
    Not surprised.

    Any way. I was very happy with the final placement of that competition though.

  14. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Not surprised.

    Any way. I was very happy with the final placement of that competition though.
    I was less happy , but I thought it was a fair result.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Plushenko and Yagudin are both legends and will go down as far greater skaters and champions with far greater legacies than Chan ever will. Lets leave it at that and stop comparing the two gods. Gods are to be admired, not compared anyway.


    Yagudin never reached pick point and never matured in his skating. Look again at his last two programs from 2002, that is a fact. He stopped competitive skating at age 22, too young to be a god or legend, but he was lucky that didn’t have real competition, except from young Plushenko.
    And yes, please don't compare them.

    Yagudin 2002 was very good skater, but nothing close to Plushenko 2013

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