Plushenko: Chan Does Not Deserve World Title | Page 14 | Golden Skate

Plushenko: Chan Does Not Deserve World Title

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plushyfan

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The number of Youtube hits doesn't mean a skater is good... it means they have a lot of fans, but it doesn't mean they're good. Plushenko is obviously a very popular skater (as he should be), so it's not surprising that his videos have many hits.

Of course, but why he is so popular? hm.. it is not too smart discussion:disapp:..Am I right?

Do you know what is my problem? Some people are dying for his artistry some people say he isn't artistry,,Tooooooo big difference. Don't you think? If you or anybody would say don't like his style, I would say it's OK.

some post to his videos:
"Evgeny, beautiful Evgeny, please keep skating, every one of your performances is a shot of happiness in my life, it makes me feel in another world, you know that you have the touch of an angel, you were blessed with your art, with your genius, thank you Evgeny, I love you"

"I am bloody breathless. I honestly can't breathe. I've watched so many ice skaters, but I have never, in my entire life, seen the human body move in such a way. Plushenko, you are Gods wonder; <333"

"His performance made me cry. There are few skaters that hold such amazing stage presence. Amazing elegance, remarkable engagement with the audience, heartfelt expression and connection with the music. And what power! For me, the skaters I see with these qualities are Plushenko, Takahashi, and Wier. You can't deny the raw talent. I know Plushenko is a ham, probably overly confident, but I love him for it! His determination is legendary and it makes him EPIC."

"when he's on ice it's like the world stops around you. nothing matters.. it's only 4 minutes but it feels like a lifetime cause you experience so many emotions... and when it end you wake up from the sweetest dream that continues playing in front of your eyes.. it takes the same 4 minutes to actually understand where are you and what is going on around you.. but you don't want it to stop cause it's Soo Mesmirising!"
etc.
Do you understand? TOOOO BIG DIFFERENCE!!!!
 

Bluebonnet

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To use Youtube view numbers to prove anyone is more artistic is very funny. Those numbers can only prove how many fans, or even how many CRAZY fans, one has. Don't you know that some fans rewatch one video over 200 times? It didn't mean that it got over 200 fans.;)
 

itoja

Rinkside
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Nov 12, 2012
I don't think it's hard to convince non-skating fans that Chan is a very artistic skater when he skates clean.
Do you mean people who don't watch figure skating? Because first you have to make them watch him, and believe me, it's not an easy task. I made an experiment, I showed some programs by male skaters to not into figure skating people, and results where shocking, even for me. No one person wanted to watch Patrick Chan for more than 30 seconds. No one. They were more or less amused or impressed by others, but Patrick Chan was simply not-watchable for them.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
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CanadianSkaterGuy can keep rambling all he wants but it wont change the fact Plushenko' legacy, reputation, and respect level in figure skating >>>>>>>>> Chan's. When people hear Plushenko they say legend. When they hear Chan, well we all know full well where that topic goes.
 

Bluebonnet

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I didn't say that. But interesting thought.:yes: If i would be a lawyer i would say, do you think Plushy has only 200 fans?

;) By the way, a real lawyer won't ask a question like that.
Yes, I do. And I ask again: If Patrick is so amazing, so artistic, so so so best, why people don't like to watch his videos on Youtube?

Many people have already made their position clear that Plushenko is a legend with his age, his passion, his steel-like body and spirit, and more. But you are still not satisfied with such pronounce. You argue that Plushenko is more than that, and in the meantime another skater is nothing. Sorry, can't give you your beloved skater that much anymore.:)

but it wont change the fact Plushenko' legacy, reputation, and respect level in figure skating >>>>>>>>> Chan's. When people hear Plushenko they say legend. When they hear Chan, well we all know full well where that topic goes.

Maybe you have forgotten that only a few years back, Plushenko had been THE most hated skater on all the skating forums. If that could be an indicator...:popcorn:
 

LRK

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Frankly?

To me "Artistry" is when a figure skater lays down their heart & soul on the ice.

Simply put. And no arguing, and no telling me what supposedly "is" and "isn't" Artistry will change my mind. I don't like it when people lay down the law on such matters - as if only one kind of style can merit the appellation and - no other. You have to skate so and so, tick so and so many boxes - that is "Art". If you do not, no matter how much people love to see you skate, no matter the passion, no matter the heart - that is not "Art".

Is there only one kind of "Music"? Is Mozart music - and The Beatles not? Who is to decide these things?
 

plushyfan

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You have forgotten, or intentionally forgotten, only a few years back, Plushenko had been THE most hated skater on all the skating forums. If that could be an indicator...:popcorn:
Really ? I don't think. Maybe in N-A forums.
 

LRK

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;)

Maybe you have forgotten only a few years back, Plushenko had been THE most hated skater on all the skating forums. If that could be an indicator...:popcorn:

Of what, pray? Lacking popularity? How often have you seen an audience unresponsive to Plushy's performance on ice? Even when he supposedly was most "hated"? But, then, perhaps they didn't get the "memo" - perhaps they failed to check in on any forum to see what they were supposed to think?

But thankfully we have you to tell us. How lucky we are.:sarcasm:

Also ridiculing the "evidence" of Youtube, whilst hailing the "proof" of forums... ? (Or is that "fora"? - hmmm... :think: )

ETA - Typos.
 

plushyfan

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Frankly?

To me "Artistry" is when a figure skater lays down their heart & soul on the ice.

Simply put. And no arguing, and no telling me what supposedly "is" and "isn't" Artistry will change my mind. I don't like it when people lay down the law on such matters - as if only one kind of style can merit the appellation and - no other. You have to skate so and so, tick so and so many boxes - that is "Art". If you do not, no matter how much people love to see you skate, no matter the passion, no matter the heart - that is not "Art".

Is there only one kind of "Music"? Is Mozart music - and The Beatles not? Who is to decide these things?

oh, I wrote many unnecessary text, and you come and formulate the essence! Thank you!

But it will be understandable Mozart and Salieri...;)
 

plushyfan

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Of course, Plushy fan forums excluded for the obvious reason.
Oh no!!!! for example didn't you read the Youtube? Many- many Fs fans fought for him!!!! Eh, sometimes I think, you have very little information about him but you say opinion so easily...
 

bestskate8

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
I still don't understand your point, I'm sorry. :confused: Why should we compare someone who had 22 y.o with someone who's 30, or someone who's currently competing with someone who retired 11 years ago? Yagudin's skating was mature enough for a young figure skater. Plushenko looked also mature at 22 years old, because he was competing since 15, he had a lot of experience.

It is the reference for people who think Yagudin is a god and legend. He is very good and talented skater, yes, but not the god or legend. imho



Yes, I do. And I ask again: If Patrick is so amazing, so artistic, so so so best, why people don't like to watch his videos on Youtube?

people don't like fake artistry, fake champions



Yes, and Dick Button also said this:Nijinsky would be proud...in 2004 WCH

he also said in 2003 SC, "Nijinsky turn in his grave.."


Plushenko's SP this year after the jumping errors was on fire (at least if you watched it live). But I would not argue so much about choreography. This point in my view is anyway fixed. Yes, Ch wise Chan is better so if he got higher CH mark, it is fair. In general Plushenko's marks are down which is normal when you make mistakes!!! That is actually the whole point of this post, why Chan made some many terrible mistakes could still get high PCS. Yes you can definitely argue he is much much much supreme than Plushenko, that is why his marks are so convincing to people, right?

Nowadays, in FS, PCS=artistry, I get it. Although everything you are referring is very technique related, very specific for figure skating, not for the art form in general. That is why it is difficult or even laughable to say that Nijinsky program is not artistic, maybe in some figure skating fans eyes it is not artistic, but not in general viewers eyes. That is why it is so hard to convince a non-skating fan that Chan is very artistic skater.


When choreography for the program done by professional ballet choreographer or dancer and done in traditional classical style, most people understand the beauty of it. Plushenko always uses this type of resources for his programs, even some type of the consulting will bring up the goods.
It is exactly Plushenko's programs are very artistic and more welcomed by general viewers.
His natural soft, charismatic, convincing skating glues people attention to him and what he is doing on ice.

Denis Ten has this natural soft skating as well, and when he skated clean at WCH2013, he was not much behind in the artistry from Chan and Chan become nothing special anymore.
 

evangeline

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PCS does not mean "artistry." The word "artistry" isn't mentioned anywhere in the criteria and frankly it's difficult to even discern what people are referring to when they keep throwing that word around in such varied contexts.
 

Bluebonnet

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Aug 18, 2010
he also said in 2003 SC, "Nijinsky turn in his grave.."

That was actually a negative remark.:)

Denis Ten has this natural soft skating as well, and when he skated clean at WCH2013, he was not much behind in the artistry from Chan and Chan become nothing special anymore.

And the judges felt the similar way. They gave Ten PE 8.89, higher than Chan's 8.61. Ten CH 8.86, only a little behind Chan's 9.00. And Ten IN 8.86, still only a little behind Chan's 8.96.
 

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
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Choreography IS artistry. A poorly choreographed program will and should get lower artistic impression/PCS scores. I can't believe I actually have to say it as matter-of-factly as that. It doesn't matter how expressive a skater is if their choreography is terrible. Takahashi's SP to Moonlight Sonata (which many say is a choreographical injustice to how great a skater he is) is a good example of how an artistic skater with poor choreography will perform a less artistic program on the whole.

Also, Chan obviously doesn't throw the kitchen sink into his programs and is totally cold fish and disconnected, otherwise he wouldn't consistently get top marks for performance and interpretation. You're entitled to your opinion (and the shared opinion of others who will dislike Chan no matter what he does), but the judges clearly think differently. I know everyone who hates Chan will pick and choose his poor performances like 2013 Worlds as an indication of the type of skater he is. It would be like saying because Plushenko made errors in his 2013 Euros SP and let the program go he's a cold, emotionless skater. In fact, it was a good indication of how average Plushenko's choreography apparently is when he doesn't land the big tricks (as rare as that is).

Plushenko's Nijinsky does evoke emotions but only at specific points. Otherwise it is robotic skating in between jumps. He literally comes to standstills and does gushy, melodramatic posing. That might be artistic expression but it's not artistic choreography. Can you honestly say that if that Nijinsky performance didn't have all the jumps and that footwork sequence (when apparently somebody decided to attach jumper cables to him and he actually started moving and doing intricate steps) it would still be worth watching? Chan might not be the most expressive skater, like a Takahashi, but at least his programs have interesting, original choreography and, jumping errors aside (which, of course NOBODY else makes), he usually performs it well.

What's wrong with my screen name? Is it because I'm openly Canadian or because I'm openly a guy that all of a sudden my opinion should be disregarded? Hey, what's your nationality/gender, karne? :p

No, it ISN'T. You could give the same program to two completely different skaters and end up with a totally different result. A great skater with a poor program can still be far more artistic than a poor skater with a great program. Otherwise, why would everyone not immediately flock to those choreographers viewed as "artistic" to buy their artistry? It is a factor of the skater, not the choreography.

Chan, as we have seen, can Zamboni the ice four times with his backside and still win a gold medal, so I don't think using Chan as a scoring example is ever a good idea. Regardless, judges do throw around IN marks like they're lollies to give to all the skaters. When I watch Chan, I don't feel what he wants me to feel. I don't feel any connection, I don't feel that he is showing any passion, I don't feel that he is showing any emotion. And then come his regulation falls which break the mood of the program. It takes a rare skater to make me feel again after they fall.

As for P/E, I have a major, MAJOR problem with skaters like Chan still getting 8s in P/E after falling twice. For what is the second word in there? EXECUTION.

And the reason I can't take you seriously is because you are Canadian screaming for Patrick Chan and against any of his detractors. Can we say biased? For the record, I am an Australian girl - thus, no nationality biases in this fight.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Frankly?

To me "Artistry" is when a figure skater lays down their heart & soul on the ice.

Simply put. And no arguing, and no telling me what supposedly "is" and "isn't" Artistry will change my mind. I don't like it when people lay down the law on such matters - as if only one kind of style can merit the appellation and - no other. You have to skate so and so, tick so and so many boxes - that is "Art". If you do not, no matter how much people love to see you skate, no matter the passion, no matter the heart - that is not "Art".

Is there only one kind of "Music"? Is Mozart music - and The Beatles not? Who is to decide these things?

That last line says it all, LRK. Art is so much wider than any one of us can imagine or decree. One proof of this is that there are many cultures whose highest art form may be an acquired taste for people outside of those cultures. There is some modern dissonant classical music, by composers such as Alban Berg, that will send me screaming from the room, and I love most classical music.

One of the comments that Plushyfan copied from under a Plushy video said something about how when the person watched Plushy skate, it was as if time stopped. That's a wonderful description of great art. The thing is that Plushenko can probably make time stop for a good many people but not necessarily for everyone. And that's cool! It doesn't mean that he's not artistic; it merely means that his art doesn't appeal to everyone. Look, Wagnerian opera makes some people just laugh. It makes others tremble with delight--for all five hours of one of his operas. There's no question that his operas are art, and what's more, they're enduring art.

You can see that Plushenko has some vision of doing something more with his skating than just getting the jumps right and scoring points. Whether or not any one or another of us responds to his creative vision is a different question. Sometimes he gets to me, and other times he doesn't. But although the current skater who makes time stop for me is Takahashi, I can certainly see why Plushenko tops many people's lists in that regard.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Jan 25, 2013
No, it ISN'T. You could give the same program to two completely different skaters and end up with a totally different result. A great skater with a poor program can still be far more artistic than a poor skater with a great program. Otherwise, why would everyone not immediately flock to those choreographers viewed as "artistic" to buy their artistry? It is a factor of the skater, not the choreography.

Chan, as we have seen, can Zamboni the ice four times with his backside and still win a gold medal, so I don't think using Chan as a scoring example is ever a good idea. Regardless, judges do throw around IN marks like they're lollies to give to all the skaters. When I watch Chan, I don't feel what he wants me to feel. I don't feel any connection, I don't feel that he is showing any passion, I don't feel that he is showing any emotion. And then come his regulation falls which break the mood of the program. It takes a rare skater to make me feel again after they fall.

As for P/E, I have a major, MAJOR problem with skaters like Chan still getting 8s in P/E after falling twice. For what is the second word in there? EXECUTION.

And the reason I can't take you seriously is because you are Canadian screaming for Patrick Chan and against any of his detractors. Can we say biased? For the record, I am an Australian girl - thus, no nationality biases in this fight.

If you've read my posts, you'll see that I say positive things about Chan's skating but concede when he should be losing. Apparently on this forum if you say anything positive about Patrick Chan, people assume that you support every one of his victories.

Apparently you can use a Zamboni the ice rhetoric multiple times and still think you're clever. You're picking one example. Hanyu won NHK with two falls and 4 errors in his freeskate, and Takahashi won the GPF with errors too, including a fall. Kostner swiffered the ice with her butt in the SP and FS, but that's not indicative of how she is as a skater. And they still get 8s in P/E. Oh, but they're not Patrick Chan so you would never go after them.

You just make it seem like you have an axe to grind every time you mention Chan falls four times and can still win, as if that's been representative of his wins. :rolleye:

And you saying that I'm screaming for Chan just because I'm Canadian is as typifying and ignorant as if I saidsomething outrageous like you don't know a thing about skating because they don't even have ice in Australia, nor have they ever come up with any decent skaters to come out of Australia so why would your opinion hold any weight. :rolleye:
 

plushyfan

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Joined
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When choreography for the program done by professional ballet choreographer or dancer and done in traditional classical style, most people understand the beauty of it. Plushenko always uses this type of resources for his programs, even some type of the consulting will bring up the goods.
It is exactly Plushenko's programs are very artistic and more welcomed by general viewers.
His natural soft, charismatic, convincing skating glues people attention to him and what he is doing on ice.

The choreographer was Yuri Smekalov, dancer and choreoghrapher in Kirov Ballet, but I think you know that. He is the choreographer of Gachinsky new Anna Karenina program. I can't wait it!!!
Maybe you miss this german documentary from 2004. How they made the Nijinsky program and shows us the racing between Plushy and Joubert in ECH and WCH 2004. Fantastic documentary!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2841lVtRMQ
 
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