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Thread: Plushenko: Chan Does Not Deserve World Title

  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by bestskate8 View Post


    Yagudin never reached pick point and never matured in his skating. Look again at his last two programs from 2002, that is a fact. He stopped competitive skating at age 22, too young to be a god or legend, but he was lucky that didn’t have real competition, except from young Plushenko.
    And yes, please don't compare them.

    Yagudin 2002 was very god skater, but nothing close to Plushenko 2013
    Just wondering if you really know what you're talking about?

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by bestskate8 View Post


    Yagudin never reached pick point and never matured in his skating. Look again at his last two programs from 2002, that is a fact. He stopped competitive skating at age 22, too young to be a god or legend, but he was lucky that didn’t have real competition, except from young Plushenko.
    And yes, please don't compare them.

    Yagudin 2002 was very good skater, but nothing close to Plushenko 2013
    You're joking, right? Since when a skater's peak is at 30 y.o? LOL, this is funny!

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciocio View Post
    You're joking, right? Since when a skater's peak is at 30 y.o? LOL, this is funny!
    I think he/she is either joking or being sarcastic, or just try to stir things a bit up for further discussion (not in a good way...). Let's just ignore this comments

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    When I read that Plushenko isn't an artistry skater, I go to the Youtube and watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEJXkfMYTX4 And I calm down..I'm right, he is. This program and skating "a piece of eternity."
    That is a technically superb performance, but it's not an artistically superb performance. Most of the choreographic is basic skating with two-footed skating, simple one-foot glides, 3-turns and mohawks and pumping counter-clockwise around the rink. The only time he exhibits footwork is, well, during his footwork. As for expression, he has moments of expression but not while he's actually skating -- only while he's at standstills. A clean, well-performed skate from one of the favourites, especially if they skate last, will often get 6.0's regardless of how good the actual program content is.

    I don't take away from how technically good that performance was (save for the spins which were a bit sloppy and travelling), but for comparison, Plushenko's FS at the beginning of last year was light years ahead of his Nijinsky program in terms of artistry and content.

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    That is a technically superb performance, but it's not an artistically superb performance. Most of the choreographic is basic skating with two-footed skating, simple one-foot glides, 3-turns and mohawks and pumping counter-clockwise around the rink. The only time he exhibits footwork is, well, during his footwork. As for expression, he has moments of expression but not while he's actually skating -- only while he's at standstills. A clean, well-performed skate from one of the favourites, especially if they skate last, will often get 6.0's regardless of how good the actual program content is.

    I don't take away from how technically good that performance was (save for the spins which were a bit sloppy and travelling), but for comparison, Plushenko's FS at the beginning of last year was light years ahead of his Nijinsky program in terms of artistry and content.
    Your analysis shows exactly how the artistry is regarded in different people's eyes.

  6. #216
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    Maybe that should be its own thread?:

    What Is Artistry? How Do You Define It?


  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    That is a technically superb performance, but it's not an artistically superb performance. Most of the choreographic is basic skating with two-footed skating, simple one-foot glides, 3-turns and mohawks and pumping counter-clockwise around the rink. The only time he exhibits footwork is, well, during his footwork. As for expression, he has moments of expression but not while he's actually skating -- only while he's at standstills. A clean, well-performed skate from one of the favourites, especially if they skate last, will often get 6.0's regardless of how good the actual program content is.

    I don't take away from how technically good that performance was (save for the spins which were a bit sloppy and travelling), but for comparison, Plushenko's FS at the beginning of last year was light years ahead of his Nijinsky program in terms of artistry and content.
    Geez, I count myself one lucky fan when I get to see a skate of this caliber, both technically and artistically. I would say that Plushenko was expressing himself artistically in this skate - how many people can give a superb interpretive skate of a famous Russian ballet dancer on the ice!

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by skaterdelight View Post
    Geez, I count myself one lucky fan when I get to see a skate of this caliber, both technically and artistically. I would say that Plushenko was expressing himself artistically in this skate - how many people can give a superb interpretive skate of a famous Russian ballet dancer on the ice!
    Sorry, I agree that he is giving artistry. But not 6.0 worthy artistry because his artistry is not incorporated into his actual skating. He's basically jumping (very well, mind you), then stroking around, then stopping, THEN emoting (or gliding on one foot and giving expression). Artistry isn't integrated into his skating movements. He's kind of pulling a Baiul... he's basically jumping well and then being dramatic at stand stills. Under CoP he gets marks for Performance (mayyybe interpretation), but his skating skills, transitions, and choreography are subpar. If you cut a video without the jumps and footwork sequence in there, there would be almost nothing complex, interesting, or original to that program. Even that Biellmann spiral is done so strained and mechanically as if he's just thinking about the next element.

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by LRK View Post
    Maybe that should be its own thread?:

    What Is Artistry? How Do You Define It?

    We've periodically done a thread like this, and it's always rewarding. We never agree, of course, but people come up with some marvelous ways to articulate the concept.

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    We've periodically done a thread like this, and it's always rewarding. We never agree, of course, but people come up with some marvelous ways to articulate the concept.
    Of course, artistry is open to interpretation. The feeling that Plushenko's program leaves you is maybe a 6.0-worthy performance, but to me artistry has to be integrated into the skating, otherwise programs feel disjointed. Like you get all your jumps over with and then all of a sudden start thinking about getting into the character of the program. It's really hard to put on an athletic show but also create a performance of emotions and expression, but that's what makes figure skating so hard.

    And it depends on the skater too... skaters like Slutskaya, Plushenko and early Shen/Zhao are powerful skaters with big elements so they skate to more dramatic music and do "strong" artistry, exhibiting attack and confidence. When they go clean and have big elements, their programs' "artistry" is the sense of awe you get from cleanly executing these huge, difficult elements and a sense of "I own the ice"... which is a different artistry you get from skaters like Takahashi, Czisny, and later Shen/Zhao who are softer, more lyrical skaters whose programs' artistry give you a sense of expression and emotion integrated into their programs and movements. In one case, the artistry is that of technical skaters who perform big difficulty, and the other is artistic skaters who get into a program and really interpret the music. And then of course you have the inbetweens - Kim, Yagudin, Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze, Chan (when he's on) - who exhibit excellent technical ability but still maintain a lyrical quality to their skating. Obviously, better artistry is more desired by most people, but I do appreciate exceedingly difficult technical performances as it emphasizes the sport aspect of figure skating.

  11. #221
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    Welcome, skaterdelight. Thanks for posting.

  12. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by yaya124 View Post
    I think he/she is either joking or being sarcastic, or just try to stir things a bit up for further discussion (not in a good way...). Let's just ignore this comments




    Look back to back at these two LPs, what prove do you need?
    I don't stir anything, just said different opinion and supported with the fact. I still belive Yagudin didn't reach the pick with MITIM, his skating in 2002 was very good, but not mature . Same as Chan now.
    Did you know some people never watch Plushenko after 2002, when Yagudin retired.

    These two videos show very good comparison and how skating can mature with age.

    Yagudin 2002

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6zeIUH3rHg

    Plushenko 2013

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4kbg...ature=youtu.be




    Plushenko and Yagudin both are still skating today, and videos are good prove how their skating matured during pastt 10 year.
    Even better comparison on these two videos, same day same year, November 2012

    Plushenko 2012

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC1a1N3uUH8
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ufh-ollbPMQ

    Yagudin 2012, he skated only one program

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiAXszUiXyM

  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    That is a technically superb performance, but it's not an artistically superb performance. Most of the choreographic is basic skating with two-footed skating, simple one-foot glides, 3-turns and mohawks and pumping counter-clockwise around the rink. The only time he exhibits footwork is, well, during his footwork. As for expression, he has moments of expression but not while he's actually skating -- only while he's at standstills. A clean, well-performed skate from one of the favourites, especially if they skate last, will often get 6.0's regardless of how good the actual program content is.

    I don't take away from how technically good that performance was (save for the spins which were a bit sloppy and travelling), but for comparison, Plushenko's FS at the beginning of last year was light years ahead of his Nijinsky program in terms of artistry and content.
    Just wondering if you really know what you're talking about?

    Plushenko's Nijinsky:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfBQBUxMx5Q 51.000 viewers
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEJXkfMYTX4 161 170
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yf2vbCMLxy8 29.000
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWZaHhVr4ZQ 53 000
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShH2dvsEuMk 38000
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3a61BJQp7o 28.000
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEBvaVb6W-Q 38.000
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEO79A8Ik1w 15.000
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3MYyImSDDQ 10.000
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkhn4KbisJc 426.000
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2osoWTLLAqw 42.000
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_05Cs0BusiI 18.000

    These are just the the most watched videos now. Were more others. In addition, there are a lot of small, 3- 4-5000 watched videos. I think some people can be wrong...

  14. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by bestskate8 View Post




    Look back to back at these two LPs, what prove do you need?
    I don't stir anything, just said different opinion and supported with the fact. I still belive Yagudin didn't reach the pick with MITIM, his skating in 2002 was very good, but not mature . Same as Chan now.
    Did you know some people never watch Plushenko after 2002, when Yagudin retired.

    These two videos show very good comparison and how skating can mature with age.

    Yagudin 2002

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6zeIUH3rHg

    Plushenko 2013

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4kbg...ature=youtu.be




    Plushenko and Yagudin both are still skating today, and videos are good prove how their skating matured during pastt 10 year.
    Even better comparison on these two videos, same day same year, November 2012

    Plushenko 2012

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC1a1N3uUH8
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ufh-ollbPMQ

    Yagudin 2012, he skated only one program

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiAXszUiXyM
    I still don't understand your point, I'm sorry. Why should we compare someone who had 22 y.o with someone who's 30, or someone who's currently competing with someone who retired 11 years ago? Yagudin's skating was mature enough for a young figure skater. Plushenko looked also mature at 22 years old, because he was competing since 15, he had a lot of experience.

  15. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post

    These are just the the most watched videos now. Were more others. In addition, there are a lot of small, 3- 4-5000 viewers. I think that some people can be wrong...
    So you think that the more there is youtube viewers, the more program has artistry and content? In that case Plushenko's Sex Bomb would have the greatest artistry with almost 1 million viewers.

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