Plushenko: Chan Does Not Deserve World Title | Page 15 | Golden Skate

Plushenko: Chan Does Not Deserve World Title

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yaya124

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Mar 27, 2011
If you've read my posts, you'll see that I say positive things about Chan's skating but concede when he should be losing. Apparently on this forum if you say anything positive about Patrick Chan, people assume that you support every one of his victories.

Apparently you can use a Zamboni the ice rhetoric multiple times and still think you're clever. You're picking one example. Hanyu won NHK with two falls and 4 errors in his freeskate, and Takahashi won the GPF with errors too, including a fall. Kostner swiffered the ice with her butt in the SP and FS, but that's not indicative of how she is as a skater. And they still get 8s in P/E. Oh, but they're not Patrick Chan so you would never go after them.

You just make it seem like you have an axe to grind every time you mention Chan falls four times and can still win, as if that's been representative of his wins. :rolleye:

And you saying that I'm screaming for Chan just because I'm Canadian is as typifying and ignorant as if I saidsomething outrageous like you don't know a thing about skating because they don't even have ice in Australia, nor have they ever come up with any decent skaters to come out of Australia so why would your opinion hold any weight. :rolleye:

This post is about Chan's performance so naturally he is the subject to discuss, isn't it? If Plushenko said that he does not agree with one the results you mentioned above, then the post would be discussing about that case, plus discussing about Plushenko is artistic or not (which is just common trend when coming to Plushenko). But of course Patrick's name would certain appear in the post (assuming we would discuss about Hanyu) as an example: "maybe Hanyu's mark is not so convincing, but how about Patrick's mark in ? (pick one of his win with multiple falls)?". All the examples or controversial results listed here only contribute to the fact that the rules need some adjustment.

Other people have been over marked does not mean then everybody should feel OK about the system and stopping complaining about Chan's marks, it only means the system needs adjustment.
 

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
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If you've read my posts, you'll see that I say positive things about Chan's skating but concede when he should be losing. Apparently on this forum if you say anything positive about Patrick Chan, people assume that you support every one of his victories.

Apparently you can use a Zamboni the ice rhetoric multiple times and still think you're clever. You're picking one example. Hanyu won NHK with two falls and 4 errors in his freeskate, and Takahashi won the GPF with errors too, including a fall. Kostner swiffered the ice with her butt in the SP and FS, but that's not indicative of how she is as a skater. And they still get 8s in P/E. Oh, but they're not Patrick Chan so you would never go after them.

You just make it seem like you have an axe to grind every time you mention Chan falls four times and can still win, as if that's been representative of his wins. :rolleye:

And you saying that I'm screaming for Chan just because I'm Canadian is as typifying and ignorant as if I saidsomething outrageous like you don't know a thing about skating because they don't even have ice in Australia, nor have they ever come up with any decent skaters to come out of Australia so why would your opinion hold any weight. :rolleye:

Yes, I am picking one example. But I happen to think that any skater who falls twice or more and still wins has a tainted victory. Hanyu's, Kosner's are other examples of exactly what is wrong with this judging system. It's appalling that skaters can be human zambonis and still win. It should not happen. And the example was relevant since the discussion was about CHAN. If the discussion had been about Kostner or Hanyu, then we could have used their examples too.

Of course I have an axe to grind. Should I not find it angering and irritating that one skater now has to do little more than trip around the ice for four and a half minutes to win? Do you not see the inherent wrongness of a skater falling multiple times and finishing ahead of a skater who skated, at difficulty, clean? Since when has it become "okay" to fall all over the place rather than land your jumps? Maybe if Chan put in as much effort into LANDING HIS JUMPS as he did the stupidly busy transitions, his victories would not be so controversial.
 

ciocio

On the Ice
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Patrick is not as artistic as Jeremy Abbott. But he is more artistic than many top skaters including Plushenko ( I don't want revenge, either). Has Plushenko ever been compared with John Curry - the legendary British artistic skater who combined ballet and modern dance with figure skating? Well, Patrick had, by one of the euro sport commentator. Patrick was said to have a bit touch of John Curry but much more athletic.:yes: And you call that "isn't artistry"?

No, he was never compared to other skater from the past in terms of style and I hope he´ll never be. Plushenko is not the second X, he is Plushenko.
He was compared to Alexander Godunov, probably because they resemble physically.
Chan and Curry have nothing in common. Curry had a real ballet training, he probably was the only ballet dancer on skates.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Yes, I am picking one example. But I happen to think that any skater who falls twice or more and still wins has a tainted victory. Hanyu's, Kosner's are other examples of exactly what is wrong with this judging system. It's appalling that skaters can be human zambonis and still win. It should not happen. And the example was relevant since the discussion was about CHAN. If the discussion had been about Kostner or Hanyu, then we could have used their examples too.

Of course I have an axe to grind. Should I not find it angering and irritating that one skater now has to do little more than trip around the ice for four and a half minutes to win? Do you not see the inherent wrongness of a skater falling multiple times and finishing ahead of a skater who skated, at difficulty, clean? Since when has it become "okay" to fall all over the place rather than land your jumps? Maybe if Chan put in as much effort into LANDING HIS JUMPS as he did the stupidly busy transitions, his victories would not be so controversial.

When have I ever said that it's okay for skaters who make tons of errors to win against those who skate clean or that a win with 2 falls can be considered a great victory? It's a horrible thing when falls happen for ANY skater and they win or place high, but you also have to look at the competition, at the SP performances, and the quality of skating amongst the field. Obviously it's not okay to fall, but you make it sound like Chan's intentionally falling on his jumps -- or that what he's doing is easy and he should be landing everything -- especially when the rest of the field falls, too. I'm not even going to get into you criticizing Chan for putting in transitions (what, should he be telegraphing his jumps?!).

My supporting his skating has little to do with being Canadian. It has everything to do with him being a skater who is talented, makes the most of the system everyone is working with, and has programs with intricate, original choreography and high difficulty. It doesn't mean I support all of his wins, and I certainly do not. I love Kostner's skating and think she's arguably the finest women's skater now (in terms of skating quality), but I don't support her getting 2nd place after a fall in the SP + 2 major errors in her FS... if not for Kim, Kostner would have won Worlds with 2 falls and a singled loop -- almost as many errors as Chan made overall. Essentially, I agree with you that Chan beating Ten/Hanyu's NHK win/Virtue-Moir's SD fall but still placing 2nd/Kostner's 2nd SP, and the list goes on... are all examples of what is wrong with the system.

But when people only go after Chan and make sweeping statements that are reflective of only a minority of his wins in the past, as if that should be indicative of how he is now, it's unfair and hypocritical since several top skaters have had terribly skated programs with falls - recently too - and have won. It's also unfair to use ONE example of where he happened to win with 4 falls (a win which I have said he does not deserve) as the 'example' of his skating. He's never fallen more than 2 times in his FS (in any competition that he's won). And 2/3 of his victories have happened with 1 fall or no falls over both the SP & FS. So it's pretty misleading, and frankly delusional, to say he wins with falls all the time. And saying he "can" win with 2 falls is also misleading because that is in the past when his competition hadn't closed the gap on him, skating-wise.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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To use actual recent competitions: at the GPF, Fernandez, Hanyu and Takahashi ALL placed ahead of Chan in the FS -- even with a fall from Takahashi. Chan placed 3rd and fell only ONCE in the entire competition.

He also came 2nd to Javier at Skate Canada. Javier - like Daisuke at the GPF - also had a fall in the FS, too. And yet again, Chan fell only ONCE in the entire competition and lost.

The judges are willing to give the win or higher placements to other skaters when Chan has errors - and even when these skaters don't go clean themselves!

It just so happened that at Worlds, anyone who could and has beaten Chan didn't step up, and Denis Ten had the misfortune of, well, being Denis Ten. Had a top skater like Daisuke/Javier/Hanyu put forth the same technical content and clean skates as Denis Ten, they would have handily beaten Chan.... but they made multiple errors too - including falls - and in BOTH segments. Hanyu in his SP fell on a 4T< and botched his lutz; he doubled a quad in his LP.... Javier didn't fall but did a single axel in his SP; in his FS he doubled a quad and singled a lutz -- all costly CoP errors... Takahashi UR'ed two jumping passes in his SP, and in the FS had an UR/two-footed 4T, put a hand down on his 3L, and fell on a 3A<.

I do not support Chan's win over Ten, but surely we can all agree that overall he bested a flawed Hanyu, Fernandez, and Takahashi -- the guys who have been capable of beating him this season. Had Ten not skated, it really would have been a "tainted victory" if any of those guys won, not just Chan.
 
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I do not support Chan's win over Ten, but surely we can all agree that overall he bested a flawed Hanyu, Fernandez, and Takahashi -- the guys who have been capable of beating him this season. Had Ten not skated, it really would have been a "tainted victory" if any of those guys won, not just Chan.

I am not sure I understand your point. Ten did skate. Critics of the judging agree with you -- they "do not support Chan's win over Ten." No one is saying that Hanyu, Takahashi, or Fernandez should have won.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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My point was in response to people saying that Chan can fall many many times and still win... had Ten not been there (hypothetically speaking), Chan still would have won with 2 falls because none of this competitors who have beaten him this season did well either. This gets to the bigger point that people tend to just look at the flawed performance of Chan and not the flawed performances of his competitors, which is a pretty unfair double standard.

Ten definitely deserved to have won, but I would bet that those particularly critical of Chan didn't care to see Ten win so much as hoped to see somebody other than Chan win... and I'm guessing even if Ten hadn't skated their reaction would be "Chan wins yet again with 2 falls... the humanity!", disregarding how poorly Hanyu/Takahashi/Fernandez skated (compared to what they've been capable of this season - so much so that it would beat Chan even when they all made errors). Almost as if Ten is some scapegoat to continue hating on him.
 

karne

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My point was in response to people saying that Chan can fall many many times and still win... had Ten not been there (hypothetically speaking), Chan still would have won with 2 falls because none of this competitors who have beaten him this season did well either. This gets to the bigger point that people tend to just look at the flawed performance of Chan and not the flawed performances of his competitors, which is a pretty unfair double standard.

Ten definitely deserved to have won, but I would bet that those particularly critical of Chan didn't care to see Ten win so much as hoped to see somebody other than Chan win... and I'm guessing even if Ten hadn't skated their reaction would be "Chan wins yet again with 2 falls... the humanity!", disregarding how poorly Hanyu/Takahashi/Fernandez skated (compared to what they've been capable of this season - so much so that it would beat Chan even when they all made errors). Almost as if Ten is some scapegoat to continue hating on him.

No. I would not mind Chan winning any more than I would mind Fernandez, Hanyu, or anyone else. I DO mind him winning after putting in a performance definitely not worthy of being called a world champion.

It does not matter WHO it was who skated cleanly and beautifully and was placed below Chan. It could have been a guy who normally finishes twentieth for all I care. The fact remains that Ten skated a technically difficult program cleanly and was beaten by a guy who not only fell twice but made several other major errors. If you cannot see how that is a problem for the sport, then I have nothing more to say to you.
 

formersk8ter

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No. I would not mind Chan winning any more than I would mind Fernandez, Hanyu, or anyone else. I DO mind him winning after putting in a performance definitely not worthy of being called a world champion.

It does not matter WHO it was who skated cleanly and beautifully and was placed below Chan. It could have been a guy who normally finishes twentieth for all I care. The fact remains that Ten skated a technically difficult program cleanly and was beaten by a guy who not only fell twice but made several other major errors. If you cannot see how that is a problem for the sport, then I have nothing more to say to you.

:thumbsup::yay::clap:
 

Moment

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Ten skated beautifully? His program was awful and he was a total snooze to watch.
 

Jaana

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No. I would not mind Chan winning any more than I would mind Fernandez, Hanyu, or anyone else. I DO mind him winning after putting in a performance definitely not worthy of being called a world champion.

The winner is always worthy of being called a world champion, because what ever his performances were, their total was seen by the judges as the best of all competitors. And this was not a very good competition as so many top skaters had faulty performances. The only exception was Ten, but unfortunately his choreography was easier than e.g. that of Chan and Fernandez, but in spite of that Ten still could have won if he only had not doubled a triple jump....
 

emdee

Final Flight
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Ten skated beautifully? His program was awful and he was a total snooze to watch.

I wasnt impressed with Ten's long program ( liked his short). He stood on his feet but just skated through the music and I didnt find the emotion (IMO). Patrick on the other hand made his mistakes but there were couple of absolutely brilliant sections.

Ten's choreo was a lot easier than patrick's as well. It was a cookie cutter Lori program but dumbed down from what she would have given Patrick in the past.
 
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To me, the issue could not be more straightforward. The program components measure how well you skate your program. Chan did not skate his program well. Yet he got high scores. This is wrong and gives the sport a black eye.
 
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CanadianSkaterGuy

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No. I would not mind Chan winning any more than I would mind Fernandez, Hanyu, or anyone else. I DO mind him winning after putting in a performance definitely not worthy of being called a world champion.

It does not matter WHO it was who skated cleanly and beautifully and was placed below Chan. It could have been a guy who normally finishes twentieth for all I care. The fact remains that Ten skated a technically difficult program cleanly and was beaten by a guy who not only fell twice but made several other major errors. If you cannot see how that is a problem for the sport, then I have nothing more to say to you.

As I've said, I do not condone Chan's victory and I certainly agree with you that it does not do good things for the sport. Again, I was responding to those who complain that Chan wins without paying heed to what his competitors do. You've personally said that the World Champion doesn't deserve to have two falls. Hypothetically if Ten had not skated or had bombed himself, would you have been okay with the results as Chan, then Fernandez, then Hanyu, then Reynolds, then Takahashi?
 

noskates

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Jun 11, 2012
I can't believe this is still being hashed over. The people that are outraged that Chan won are still outraged - and it won't change anything. The people that are defending the situation because of the scoring system, etc. are getting worn out.

I don't agree with whoever said Ten was boring. I thought he had a very interesting program. Too bad the choreography wasn't as evolved as some other skaters. And yes, if he hadn't doubled a triple he might have won. Might! I think the whole men's competition was lacking - otherwise Patrick wouldn't have won with 2 falls.

But seriously, a handful of people on this board are not going to change the outcome OR the scoring system. It is what it is.

Patrick definitely has some major proving to do in the coming season. But if the officials of the skating federations are as upset as a few on this board, perhaps something will be done to shore up a system that allows someone to win when they've fallen twice. Frank Carroll can have his opinion just like the people here................but nothing will change the outcome of these Worlds.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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To me, the issue coild not be more straightforward. The program components measure how well you skate your program. Chan did not skate his program well. Yet he got high scores. This is wrong and gives the sport a black eye.

It was wrong in the case of Chan's FS, for sure. But it happened with others too.

In Takahashi's case -- for both programs he received the 2nd and 4th highest PCS scores in spite of the 7th and 13th best TES scores.

In Hanyu's case -- for his SP, he had two major errors including a fall, and his PCS was still higher than a clean Ten.

You could also argue that Ten's PCS score in his FS was excessively high considering the program content (compared to the other top guys). Yes, he skated it clean technically which counts for a lot, but I think many would say that 88 points of PCS for that program is too much -- for comparison, Kozuka (an arguably better skater than Ten) had a more technically demanding, cleaner FS at 2011 Worlds that only got 82 points for PCS. Ten should have still won with that FS considering Chan's performance, but neither man's PCS should have been so high (in both segments), IMO.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
But it happened with others too.

You are beating up on a straw man. No one is arguing against you on this point.

But seriously, a handful of people on this board are not going to change the outcome OR the scoring system.

Yeah, I agree with this point. The ISU can do what it wants at Worlds because no one is watching except a few skating nerds like us. :)

I think they will mend their ways at the Olympics, when a billion people and the IOC are watching.

The winner is always worthy of being called a world champion, because whatever his performances were, their total was seen by the judges as the best of all competitors.

Look at it this way. Suppose you had a friend who you wanted to introduce to the sport of figure skating, hoping that they might take an interest in it. Would you show that friend the LP performance of the 2013 men's world championship?

I would have no hesitation about showing Lysacek's performance from the Olympics to my friend. Yes, he didn't do a quad, he didn't do this and he didn't do that. But he skated his program with skill and conviction.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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I wasnt impressed with Ten's long program ( liked his short). He stood on his feet but just skated through the music and I didnt find the emotion (IMO). Patrick on the other hand made his mistakes but there were couple of absolutely brilliant sections.

Ten's choreo was a lot easier than patrick's as well. It was a cookie cutter Lori program but dumbed down from what she would have given Patrick in the past.

I enjoyed both programs, actually. Some nice highlights in the choreography - even if it was on the whole way easier than the other top guys... my problem was the interpretation. It's interesting because there are certainly two parts to the Artist's personality shown in the movie, but I don't feel that Ten interpreted each one in the right way, and it wasn't as distinct as I would have liked (I mean, if you're going to do the same soundtrack for both programs then you'd better be able to create distinguishable characters). I'm really happy he tried something like that though... I wish Dai (ironically, the greatest Artist in the field, IMO) had thought to do that -- I'm sure he could have really played up the classy and cheery Artist in the SP followed by the angsty and emotional Artist in the FS.
 
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