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Thread: Plushenko: Chan Does Not Deserve World Title

  1. #241
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Well, then I have no doubt that you are one of those people that you refered to. But beware, the judges don't think like you do.
    Yes, I know. But the judges didn't think like you do on Plushenko..right?

  2. #242
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yaya124 View Post
    No, Plushenko has never been compared to John Curry (at least I have never heard of that). He was referred as Baryshnikov on ice once in an Italian article, and praised for his Nijinsky program as "Nijinsky would be proud of that" (something like that) though.
    Yes, and Dick Button also said this:Nijinsky would be proud...in 2004 WCH

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    Yes, I know. But the judges didn't think like you do on Plushenko..right?
    Probably the judges did.

    On a serious note, I have never said Plushenko has no artistry, and never denied that he was legendary with his passion and fire on ice. But would that be the only kind that could be called "artistry"?

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    Why people don't like to watch his videos on Youtube?.....
    His videos have tens of thousands of views. Obviously they won't have as many as Plushenko since they're more recent. And as mentioned, a skater doesn't have to be great to have a ton of views. Chan has more views than Kostner... are you saying she's not an artistic skater?

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Probably the judges did.

    On a serious note, I have never said Plushenko has no artistry, and never denied that he was legendary with his passion and fire on ice. But would that be the only kind that could be called "artistry"?
    Of course not. As CanadianSkaterGuy points out why he thinks Plushenko's Nijinsky is not an artistic program above, different people has different criteria for artistry. And artistry is very subjective so you cannot convince everybody that Patrick is more artistic than Plushenko, as me or Plushyfan cannot convince you that Patrick is not as artistic as Plushenko.

    BTW, Chan is very good with blades, his foot work (not only referring to steps) is very artistic which is very important criteria for skating fans.

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by karne View Post
    What was wrong with my statement? Choreography is NOT artistry. How the skater uses that choreography is artistry. There is a huge difference between Patrick Chan throwing the kitchen sink into his programs and being totally cold fish and disconnected, and a skater who does a program that, perhaps, is not as technically "difficult", but invokes feelings and emotions, as Plushenko's Nijinsky does.

    PS: You expect me to take a poster who openly calls themselves "CanadianSkaterGuy" seriously?
    Choreography IS artistry. A poorly choreographed program will and should get lower artistic impression/PCS scores. I can't believe I actually have to say it as matter-of-factly as that. It doesn't matter how expressive a skater is if their choreography is terrible. Takahashi's SP to Moonlight Sonata (which many say is a choreographical injustice to how great a skater he is) is a good example of how an artistic skater with poor choreography will perform a less artistic program on the whole.

    Also, Chan obviously doesn't throw the kitchen sink into his programs and is totally cold fish and disconnected, otherwise he wouldn't consistently get top marks for performance and interpretation. You're entitled to your opinion (and the shared opinion of others who will dislike Chan no matter what he does), but the judges clearly think differently. I know everyone who hates Chan will pick and choose his poor performances like 2013 Worlds as an indication of the type of skater he is. It would be like saying because Plushenko made errors in his 2013 Euros SP and let the program go he's a cold, emotionless skater. In fact, it was a good indication of how average Plushenko's choreography apparently is when he doesn't land the big tricks (as rare as that is).

    Plushenko's Nijinsky does evoke emotions but only at specific points. Otherwise it is robotic skating in between jumps. He literally comes to standstills and does gushy, melodramatic posing. That might be artistic expression but it's not artistic choreography. Can you honestly say that if that Nijinsky performance didn't have all the jumps and that footwork sequence (when apparently somebody decided to attach jumper cables to him and he actually started moving and doing intricate steps) it would still be worth watching? Chan might not be the most expressive skater, like a Takahashi, but at least his programs have interesting, original choreography and, jumping errors aside (which, of course NOBODY else makes), he usually performs it well.

    What's wrong with my screen name? Is it because I'm openly Canadian or because I'm openly a guy that all of a sudden my opinion should be disregarded? Hey, what's your nationality/gender, karne?

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Choreography IS artistry. A poorly choreographed program will and should get lower artistic impression/PCS scores. I can't believe I actually have to say it as matter-of-factly as that. It doesn't matter how expressive a skater is if their choreography is terrible. Takahashi's SP to Moonlight Sonata (which many say is a choreographical injustice to how great a skater he is) is a good example of how an artistic skater with poor choreography will perform a less artistic program on the whole.

    Also, Chan obviously doesn't throw the kitchen sink into his programs and is totally cold fish and disconnected, otherwise he wouldn't consistently get top marks for performance and interpretation. You're entitled to your opinion (and the shared opinion of others who will dislike Chan no matter what he does), but the judges clearly think differently. I know everyone who hates Chan will pick and choose his poor performances like 2013 Worlds as an indication of the type of skater he is. It would be like saying because Plushenko made errors in his 2013 Euros SP and let the program go he's a cold, emotionless skater. In fact, it was a good indication of how average Plushenko's choreography apparently is when he doesn't land the big tricks (as rare as that is).

    Plushenko's Nijinsky does evoke emotions but only at specific points. Otherwise it is robotic skating in between jumps. He literally comes to standstills and does gushy, melodramatic posing. That might be artistic expression but it's not artistic choreography. Can you honestly say that if that Nijinsky performance didn't have all the jumps and that footwork sequence (when apparently somebody decided to attach jumper cables to him and he actually started moving and doing intricate steps) it would still be worth watching? Chan might not be the most expressive skater, like a Takahashi, but at least his programs have interesting, original choreography and, jumping errors aside (which, of course NOBODY else makes), he usually performs it well.

    What's wrong with my screen name? Is it because I'm openly Canadian or because I'm openly a guy that all of a sudden my opinion should be disregarded? Hey, what's your nationality/gender, karne?
    Plushenko's SP this year after the jumping errors was on fire (at least if you watched it live). But I would not argue so much about choreography. This point in my view is anyway fixed. Yes, Ch wise Chan is better so if he got higher CH mark, it is fair. In general Plushenko's marks are down which is normal when you make mistakes!!! That is actually the whole point of this post, why Chan made some many terrible mistakes could still get high PCS. Yes you can definitely argue he is much much much supreme than Plushenko, that is why his marks are so convincing to people, right?

    Nowadays, in FS, PCS=artistry, I get it. Although everything you are referring is very technique related, very specific for figure skating, not for the art form in general. That is why it is difficult or even laughable to say that Nijinsky program is not artistic, maybe in some figure skating fans eyes it is not artistic, but not in general viewers eyes. That is why it is so hard to convince a non-skating fan that Chan is very artistic skater.

  8. #248
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    For one thing, Chan didn't lick or put his fingers into his mouth, or jolt his hip. It's more artistic without them. The things which would cause stomach reactions can only be called inartistic.

  9. #249
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    His videos have tens of thousands of views. Obviously they won't have as many as Plushenko since they're more recent. And as mentioned, a skater doesn't have to be great to have a ton of views. Chan has more views than Kostner... are you saying she's not an artistic skater?
    You are wrong. In last year Plushy's Tango and Roxanne videos-Niquaquest, Plushenkoinfo, Frida, LaRiservaskating, etc- had more than 300.000 viewers in total one month. After I don't know why the ISU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ngQgDVwqP8 prohibited them. And only Plushenko's videos.
    Patrick 2011 WCH http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8Nzn0K7yc4 76.000 viewers, and was a perfect program!
    And Plushy's SP in ECH more watched than Patrick's fantastic SP in WCH. But you can say, they wanted to see Plushy's fall
    No, Patrick has no more viewers than Carolina.

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by yaya124 View Post
    Nowadays, in FS, PCS=artistry, I get it. Although everything you are referring is very technique related, very specific for figure skating, not for the art form in general. That is why it is difficult or even laughable to say that Nijinsky program is not artistic, maybe in some figure skating fans eyes it is not artistic, but not in general viewers eyes. That is why it is so hard to convince a non-skating fan that Chan is very artistic skater.
    That's where it came from, but it's wrong. PCS ≠ artistry.

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    For one thing, Chan didn't lick or put his fingers into his mouth, or jolt his hip.
    I can hardly imagine Chan does such things, it would be just horrible to watch......

    And in Plushenko's recent programs, did he do such things? Your argument is old, but apparently very useful since it would probably appear again and again when discuss about Plushenko

  12. #252
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    deleted.

  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    That's where it came from, but it's wrong. PCS ≠ artistry.
    I know PCS ≠ artistry, but I have such impression from reading all kind of posts here and there. I guess Plushenko is the perfect exception and nice evidence for some of the posters because:

    1. his PCS is relatively high;
    2. he is not artistic at all in these posters eyes.

    Hence perfect proof that "PCS ≠ artistry"

  14. #254
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    I don't think it's hard to convince non-skating fans that Chan is a very artistic skater when he skates clean.

    I agree that Nijinsky, when performed flawlessly, has artistic merit to it. Plushenko's very emotive and passionate, but I wish it were evident throughout the performance. It's like his expression is an ON/OFF switch. He seems to get into "jump preparation mode" and the fluidity and expression he exhibits during his standstills i.e. "artistic expression mode" aren't evident in his general stroking around the ice. The first minute is absolutely nothing -- it doesn't establish any character to the program, it doesn't have any intricacy or transitions, and he simply just goes full force into the big tricks. Only after he's done the big tricks does he actually stop and then gets all gushy and expressive.... until of course he needs to go into the next big trick. He doesn't have ANY difficult transitions or variety of skating skill until his footwork sequence and is then all of a sudden "Oh, better do some fancy steps now". That's why it ends up looking disjointed, like a patchwork of jumps with on and off moments of artistry interspersed. With Chan, his skating and choreography lends itself to the expression of the program. In Take Five or Aranjuez, you don't need to have a closeup of his face to get a sense of artistry or what music he's skating to. Takahashi is the best of both worlds... he has the presence and facial expression of a Plushenko (albeit less over-the-top), but also his body movements and choreography lend themselves well to the nature of the program and enhance the overall artistry.

  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I don't think it's hard to convince non-skating fans that Chan is a very artistic skater when he skates clean.
    Actually, I think non-skating fans think that all figure skaters are too artistic.

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