Plushenko: Chan Does Not Deserve World Title

My issue is that PCS scores are impactful enough to negate technical performance. When clean skates (Murakami/Osmond SP, Ten's LP, Canadian pairs' LPs) are losing to technically poor performances by comparison (Kostner's SP, Chan's LP, Germans' LP), invariably the giant PCS advantage is at fault. In the SP it's less apparent because of the 0.8/1.0 factors, but in the FS with the PCS factored by 1.6/2.0, it's even more apparent.

Say a men's skater has a PCS advantage of 1.00 across all 5 categories over another skater in both the SP & FS -- that's 5 points higher PCS in the SP, and 10 points higher PCS in the LP. So automatically, the lesser PCS skater theoretically has a 15 point disadvantage (which they could make up if, say, they were allowed 2 extra jumping passes and did a 3A & 3Z) . Where skaters are separated by a 2.00 PCS advantage, that works out to a 30 point PCS disadvantage overall (which could be negated if the lesser skater was allowed 3 more jumping passes and executed 3 quads).

In the case of the ladies, a 1.00 PCS advantage across all categories equates to a 12 point disadvantage over SP+FS (so a lesser skater could make it up were she given two extra jumping passes and landed two 3Z's). For a 1.50 PCS advantage which equates to an 18 point disadvantage, the lesser skater would need to get three extra jumping passes and land all 3Z (or be given 2 extra jumping passes and land a 3Z+3T and 2A+3T) to make up the difference between them and the superior skater.

I know some skaters are vastly better than others, but that's a ridiculous discrepancy.

So what's the solution?

In the first place, "technically poor" does not always mean visible errors or failed elements. Sometimes skaters lose out technically because they water down their jump content or have less jump content planned to begin with, because they don't plan or don't attain higher levels in the spins and steps, and/or because small errors lead to negative GOEs or generally lower quality limits positive GOEs even for successful elements.

But in those cases, the skaters are likely to earn lower PCS as well, with a few exceptions.

The real problem is when a skater has higher quality in most elements and in basic skating and in most presentation criteria but also makes significant mistakes. We want those mistakes to be more costly, relative to the advantage in PCS.

Possible solutions that have been proposed, each of which has recommendations for and against:

*more punitive -GOE values
*no point value for elements that are not completed (e.g., jumps not landed on a running edge)
*larger fall deductions
*increasingly large deductions for subsequent falls
*written guidelines, whether general or detailed, instructing judges to lower certain program component scores in response to certain types of errors

Any combination of the above would be possible, although the first and second are mutually exclusive.

I think the solution would be not as wide a spread for PCS, or have the element values increased proportionally such that they have more impact.

As an example of this discrepancy, look at the World Team Trophy men's results. Chan/Takahashi/Abbott scored 6-11 points higher PCS than Menshov who was clean -- and with errors at that. Extrapolated over the course of the competition (and this is even lower since the other 3 did poor SPs) Menshov's PCS disadvantage is 18-33 points.

Obviously they are much better skaters, but Menshov really should be leading. And he really has almost no chance in the freeskate to win, since Chan/Takahashi/Abbott will be likely to already score 12-22 points higher PCS in the FS than him.

They should create different factors of PCS within the slots. Maybe skating skills is 2.3 to 1.7 for Performance or 2.3 for transitions 1.7 for choreography.

gmyers said:

They should create different factors of PCS within the slots. Maybe skating skills is 2.3 to 1.7 for Performance or 2.3 for transitions 1.7 for choreography.

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Perhaps. I feel some would protest that it benefits some skaters more than others. Really what needs to happen is that errors should be reflected in PCS much more. That a skater like Chan, Hanyu, Takahashi, Asada, and Kostner have a "set" PCS range that will never waver significantly enough to affect results no matter how well or poorly they skate is wrong.

The problem is a skater who gets 40 points of PCS when they skate cleanly and a 37.5 points when they skate poorly is the equivalent of giving 5.9 artistic impression for a flawless skate and a 5.8 artistic impression for a skate with a few falls, just because the rest of the program is executed well.

This thread should be renamed: Plushenko has another sour grapes attack. Reading some of the comments is even more fun than watching reruns of Jerry Springer! All the conjecture/conspiracy theories presented as “facts”. Hilarious -- & all because these people believe their favorites should have won instead of Patrick Chan!

I used to love Plushenko (Yagudin my fav tho’) but after his tantrums & bad sportsmanship upon winning the silver at the 2010 Olympics, I’ve no longer much respect for him. He had incredible talent back in the day but he still doesn’t appear to really understand CoP. This is illustrated in his comments about how Joubert should have been scored higher @ 2013 Worlds. Now I loved Jourbert’s FS – one of the best programs in terms of power & charisma -- but he had big probs with his jumps & very little choreography. It was still very 6.0 with a few arm flourishes thrown in.

Discussing Joubert is a good segue into how the current CoP scores re falls, etc. has evolved. At the 2009 Worlds, when Jeffery Buttle won gold, Joubert bitterly criticized Buttle’s free program for not having a quad and said didn’t deserve to win gold. (In post #330 Mathman argues, “If you take a big risk and it is successful, you win. If you take a big risk and you fail, you lose. …”). Well that’s kind of how CoP scoring used to be and, as a result, the men were no longer attempting the quad because of the risk.

Fast forward to the 2010 Olympics, where Plushenko & others said Lysacek didn’t deserve to win because, among other things, he didn’t have a quad. Another display of bad sportsmanship, not to mention the childish sense of entitlement (jumping onto the gold medal podium/awarding himself the platinum medal). So after the criticism, the ISU tweaked some scoring criteria to encourage skaters to attempt quads, etc. So now in men’s competitions today, quads, when combined with incredibly complex choreo, can result in a bit of a splat fest: Chan Takahashi, Hanyu, to name a few. So it seems many are not happy either way. Perhaps another tweak is due but the scoring will never satisfy everyone so I think people need to get over themselves, just enjoy this beautiful sport & celebrate the hardworking skaters.

As for Chan, the 3 time world champ, he actually has a huge domestic & international following and the admiration by most skating specialists - (specialists being the operative word here) – haters on forums don’t count and every time they gnash their teeth & cry foul, they just show their poor sportsmanship & lack of skating knowledge. I wonder – how many have actually seen Chan skate live; have been at rink side to see his astounding speed, pure run of the blade & incredible artistry? He is the consummate artist in every sense. Watching on TV/online isn’t the same experience.

Can’t wait for the Olympic season to start.

Plushenko has certainly huge domestic and international following and the admiration of figure skating specialists. But that doesnt prevent you from writing your opinion about him. So why shouldnt people write their own about Chan, the 3 time World Champion.
I have seen Chan live. I saw the astounding speed and pure run of the blade. And then I watched Kozuka and Daisuke.

Correction to my previous post - obviously Buttle won the 2008 Worlds, not 2009.

Wait! Are you bashing a skater (Plushenko) on an Internet forum?

Not the skater; have always admired him - just the sometimes unfortunate behavior.

Now i agree with people who question bringing up yagudin in a plushenko post when plushenkos career last 10 years more with some breaks - like 3 year break!! They were only rivals 1998-2002!! There is so much more to plushenko and his peak was post yagudin!! His total peak was in say 2004 maybe then another peak at 2012 euros but also 2010 and 2006 olympics being better in 2010 than 2006!! Look at the quad triple qualities in the Sps and then the free skates with jumps and programs. But his sportsmanship has always been fine! Like he didn't criticize skaters more than the system. By of course it was right to criticize ultra conservative skaters. They were a big part of the problem. And it's a big back and forth. Stojko criticized eldrege and vice versatile and than buttle and Joubert but also chan in 2009 a year later. And the total rumble from all sides in 2010.

Ice Diva said:

Not the skater; have always admired him - just the sometimes unfortunate behavior.

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You don't see what you said as "bashing"? Well, neither is anyone bashing Chan - just his "sometimes unfortunate behaviour"... What's sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander.

LRK said:

You don't see what you said as "bashing"? Well, neither is anyone bashing Chan - just his "sometimes unfortunate behaviour"... What's sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander.

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The poster's ID "ice diva" says it all

Ice Diva said:

As for Chan, the 3 time world champ, he actually has a huge domestic & international following and the admiration by most skating specialists - (specialists being the operative word here) – haters on forums don’t count and every time they gnash their teeth & cry foul, they just show their poor sportsmanship & lack of skating knowledge. I wonder – how many have actually seen Chan skate live; have been at rink side to see his astounding speed, pure run of the blade & incredible artistry? He is the consummate artist in every sense. Watching on TV/online isn’t the same experience.

Can’t wait for the Olympic season to start.

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Well, it's funny that you remember Plushenko and Joubert 's bad sportsmanship but none of Chan's "badmouthing sessions".

ciocio said:

Well, it's funny that you remember Plushenko and Joubert 's bad sportsmanship but none of Chan's "badmouthing sessions".

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Chan's comments towards Plushenko in fall 2009 at COR are most disgusting ones, it didn't disturb Plushenko and his team, but it fired back at Chan in Vancouver 2010.
And yes, “never say gop before the jump ”.

Plushenko and Joubert have questioned results of certain competitions, based on reasons that have to do with actual skating, and what they believe about men's skating, such as the importance of the quad. For Plushenko at Vancouver, I could see that he certainly was upset at the time because of his own placement, but I think he was not saying just because of that. At other times, he has spoken in ways that reflected the same principles. For instance, there were interviews before Vancouver in which Plushenko said he did not like the trend of the quad becoming apparently less valued, while discussing competitions that he did not take part in. Another example from later: after the SP at the 2012 Euros (in which he did not do a quad due to two serious injuries), he freely admitted that he was only in 2nd place only because most of the others "gave him a gift", and that he "simply could not compete" that day with Artur Gachinsky, who was in first after the SP. This is what he believes in.

If you think Plushenko and/or Joubert were wrong, argue against what they said. To slap phrases like "bad sportsmanship" or "unfortunate behavior" on skaters for expressing opinions that you happened to not like, about figure skating which is what they do, and which they are experts on (and not personal attacks against other skaters)--I'm afraid that I don't find it a legitimate debating technique.

As for Plushenko's "sportsmanship" (this is something I've gone on about elsewhere), I recall another thing he once said, which is that it is the responsibility of top athletes to "improve the sport". And I believe through is career, he has done his best to carry out those words, according to what he thinks about figure skating. I suspect plenty of people here will consider him arrogant for thinking this way, but to me, this is the very epitome of sportsmanship. This is what the Olympic motto actually says.

(And by the way, not that it's all that important, but since we're going to drag Joubert into this matter of "OMG skater X said Y", too, IIRC what Chan said about Joubert in 2008 was far more personal than anything Joubert said on that occasion...)

All the bashing towards Evgeni aside, Ice Diva does have a point that he needs better understanding of CoP because his programs are still all jumps and glides.

Moment said:

All the bashing towards Evgeni aside, Ice Diva does have a point that he needs better understanding of CoP because his programs are still all jumps and glides.

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And level 3 and 4 spins and step sequences too. Glides is kind of a mystery to me in meaning. 3/5 layout or just more second half like no combos until second half.

The reason why more people did not speak up after the disastrous 2008 and 2009 worlds is that no one truly believed Vancouver champion in men's and all the contenders wouldn't do quads. They blamed Joubert for failing and said it was all his fault but that Olympics would be great and quads would be back because the men respected the sport they were in. They were Wrong. The skaters cared about being smart and many quad capable skaters stopped doing them to be smart like Oda and van Der perren and weir and brezina and amodio and even lysacek. Being capable of something was no reason to put in a program.

Ice Diva said:

This thread should be renamed: Plushenko has another sour grapes attack

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I don't understand..Plushenko didn't compete.. and I don't think he would be envy of Patrick's titles. Plushy is
-junior W champion
-10 times Rus champ
-7 time Eu champ
-4 times GPF winner
-3 times W champ
-1 Oly gold medalist
-2 times Oly silver mealist

and so on

plushyfan said:

I don't understand..Plushenko didn't compete.. and I don't think he would be envy of Patrick's titles. Plushy is
-junior W champion
-10 times Rus champ
-7 time Eu champ
-4 times GPF winner
-3 times W champ
-1 Oly gold medalist
-2 times Oly silver mealist

and so on

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It's useless and irrelevant to list all his accomplishments in the past in this case. Plushenko is going to compete in Sochi. It looks like he has started his PR work now.