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Thread: Plushenko: Chan Does Not Deserve World Title

  1. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by LRK View Post
    Frankly?

    To me "Artistry" is when a figure skater lays down their heart & soul on the ice.

    Simply put. And no arguing, and no telling me what supposedly "is" and "isn't" Artistry will change my mind. I don't like it when people lay down the law on such matters - as if only one kind of style can merit the appellation and - no other. You have to skate so and so, tick so and so many boxes - that is "Art". If you do not, no matter how much people love to see you skate, no matter the passion, no matter the heart - that is not "Art".

    Is there only one kind of "Music"? Is Mozart music - and The Beatles not? Who is to decide these things?
    oh, I wrote many unnecessary text, and you come and formulate the essence! Thank you!

    But it will be understandable Mozart and Salieri...

  2. #272
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Of course, Plushy fan forums excluded for the obvious reason.
    Oh no!!!! for example didn't you read the Youtube? Many- many Fs fans fought for him!!!! Eh, sometimes I think, you have very little information about him but you say opinion so easily...

  3. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciocio View Post
    I still don't understand your point, I'm sorry. Why should we compare someone who had 22 y.o with someone who's 30, or someone who's currently competing with someone who retired 11 years ago? Yagudin's skating was mature enough for a young figure skater. Plushenko looked also mature at 22 years old, because he was competing since 15, he had a lot of experience.
    It is the reference for people who think Yagudin is a god and legend. He is very good and talented skater, yes, but not the god or legend. imho



    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    Yes, I do. And I ask again: If Patrick is so amazing, so artistic, so so so best, why people don't like to watch his videos on Youtube?
    people don't like fake artistry, fake champions



    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    Yes, and Dick Button also said this:Nijinsky would be proud...in 2004 WCH
    he also said in 2003 SC, "Nijinsky turn in his grave.."


    Quote Originally Posted by yaya124 View Post
    Plushenko's SP this year after the jumping errors was on fire (at least if you watched it live). But I would not argue so much about choreography. This point in my view is anyway fixed. Yes, Ch wise Chan is better so if he got higher CH mark, it is fair. In general Plushenko's marks are down which is normal when you make mistakes!!! That is actually the whole point of this post, why Chan made some many terrible mistakes could still get high PCS. Yes you can definitely argue he is much much much supreme than Plushenko, that is why his marks are so convincing to people, right?

    Nowadays, in FS, PCS=artistry, I get it. Although everything you are referring is very technique related, very specific for figure skating, not for the art form in general. That is why it is difficult or even laughable to say that Nijinsky program is not artistic, maybe in some figure skating fans eyes it is not artistic, but not in general viewers eyes. That is why it is so hard to convince a non-skating fan that Chan is very artistic skater.

    When choreography for the program done by professional ballet choreographer or dancer and done in traditional classical style, most people understand the beauty of it. Plushenko always uses this type of resources for his programs, even some type of the consulting will bring up the goods.
    It is exactly Plushenko's programs are very artistic and more welcomed by general viewers.
    His natural soft, charismatic, convincing skating glues people attention to him and what he is doing on ice.

    Denis Ten has this natural soft skating as well, and when he skated clean at WCH2013, he was not much behind in the artistry from Chan and Chan become nothing special anymore.

  4. #274
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    PCS does not mean "artistry." The word "artistry" isn't mentioned anywhere in the criteria and frankly it's difficult to even discern what people are referring to when they keep throwing that word around in such varied contexts.

  5. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by bestskate8 View Post
    he also said in 2003 SC, "Nijinsky turn in his grave.."
    That was actually a negative remark.

    Quote Originally Posted by bestskate8 View Post
    Denis Ten has this natural soft skating as well, and when he skated clean at WCH2013, he was not much behind in the artistry from Chan and Chan become nothing special anymore.
    And the judges felt the similar way. They gave Ten PE 8.89, higher than Chan's 8.61. Ten CH 8.86, only a little behind Chan's 9.00. And Ten IN 8.86, still only a little behind Chan's 8.96.

  6. #276
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    Seems like we'll be getting Frank Carroll's opinion on the 14th of April:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eD8NS_p7DgY

  7. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Choreography IS artistry. A poorly choreographed program will and should get lower artistic impression/PCS scores. I can't believe I actually have to say it as matter-of-factly as that. It doesn't matter how expressive a skater is if their choreography is terrible. Takahashi's SP to Moonlight Sonata (which many say is a choreographical injustice to how great a skater he is) is a good example of how an artistic skater with poor choreography will perform a less artistic program on the whole.

    Also, Chan obviously doesn't throw the kitchen sink into his programs and is totally cold fish and disconnected, otherwise he wouldn't consistently get top marks for performance and interpretation. You're entitled to your opinion (and the shared opinion of others who will dislike Chan no matter what he does), but the judges clearly think differently. I know everyone who hates Chan will pick and choose his poor performances like 2013 Worlds as an indication of the type of skater he is. It would be like saying because Plushenko made errors in his 2013 Euros SP and let the program go he's a cold, emotionless skater. In fact, it was a good indication of how average Plushenko's choreography apparently is when he doesn't land the big tricks (as rare as that is).

    Plushenko's Nijinsky does evoke emotions but only at specific points. Otherwise it is robotic skating in between jumps. He literally comes to standstills and does gushy, melodramatic posing. That might be artistic expression but it's not artistic choreography. Can you honestly say that if that Nijinsky performance didn't have all the jumps and that footwork sequence (when apparently somebody decided to attach jumper cables to him and he actually started moving and doing intricate steps) it would still be worth watching? Chan might not be the most expressive skater, like a Takahashi, but at least his programs have interesting, original choreography and, jumping errors aside (which, of course NOBODY else makes), he usually performs it well.

    What's wrong with my screen name? Is it because I'm openly Canadian or because I'm openly a guy that all of a sudden my opinion should be disregarded? Hey, what's your nationality/gender, karne?
    No, it ISN'T. You could give the same program to two completely different skaters and end up with a totally different result. A great skater with a poor program can still be far more artistic than a poor skater with a great program. Otherwise, why would everyone not immediately flock to those choreographers viewed as "artistic" to buy their artistry? It is a factor of the skater, not the choreography.

    Chan, as we have seen, can Zamboni the ice four times with his backside and still win a gold medal, so I don't think using Chan as a scoring example is ever a good idea. Regardless, judges do throw around IN marks like they're lollies to give to all the skaters. When I watch Chan, I don't feel what he wants me to feel. I don't feel any connection, I don't feel that he is showing any passion, I don't feel that he is showing any emotion. And then come his regulation falls which break the mood of the program. It takes a rare skater to make me feel again after they fall.

    As for P/E, I have a major, MAJOR problem with skaters like Chan still getting 8s in P/E after falling twice. For what is the second word in there? EXECUTION.

    And the reason I can't take you seriously is because you are Canadian screaming for Patrick Chan and against any of his detractors. Can we say biased? For the record, I am an Australian girl - thus, no nationality biases in this fight.

  8. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by LRK View Post
    Frankly?

    To me "Artistry" is when a figure skater lays down their heart & soul on the ice.

    Simply put. And no arguing, and no telling me what supposedly "is" and "isn't" Artistry will change my mind. I don't like it when people lay down the law on such matters - as if only one kind of style can merit the appellation and - no other. You have to skate so and so, tick so and so many boxes - that is "Art". If you do not, no matter how much people love to see you skate, no matter the passion, no matter the heart - that is not "Art".

    Is there only one kind of "Music"? Is Mozart music - and The Beatles not? Who is to decide these things?
    That last line says it all, LRK. Art is so much wider than any one of us can imagine or decree. One proof of this is that there are many cultures whose highest art form may be an acquired taste for people outside of those cultures. There is some modern dissonant classical music, by composers such as Alban Berg, that will send me screaming from the room, and I love most classical music.

    One of the comments that Plushyfan copied from under a Plushy video said something about how when the person watched Plushy skate, it was as if time stopped. That's a wonderful description of great art. The thing is that Plushenko can probably make time stop for a good many people but not necessarily for everyone. And that's cool! It doesn't mean that he's not artistic; it merely means that his art doesn't appeal to everyone. Look, Wagnerian opera makes some people just laugh. It makes others tremble with delight--for all five hours of one of his operas. There's no question that his operas are art, and what's more, they're enduring art.

    You can see that Plushenko has some vision of doing something more with his skating than just getting the jumps right and scoring points. Whether or not any one or another of us responds to his creative vision is a different question. Sometimes he gets to me, and other times he doesn't. But although the current skater who makes time stop for me is Takahashi, I can certainly see why Plushenko tops many people's lists in that regard.

  9. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by karne View Post
    No, it ISN'T. You could give the same program to two completely different skaters and end up with a totally different result. A great skater with a poor program can still be far more artistic than a poor skater with a great program. Otherwise, why would everyone not immediately flock to those choreographers viewed as "artistic" to buy their artistry? It is a factor of the skater, not the choreography.

    Chan, as we have seen, can Zamboni the ice four times with his backside and still win a gold medal, so I don't think using Chan as a scoring example is ever a good idea. Regardless, judges do throw around IN marks like they're lollies to give to all the skaters. When I watch Chan, I don't feel what he wants me to feel. I don't feel any connection, I don't feel that he is showing any passion, I don't feel that he is showing any emotion. And then come his regulation falls which break the mood of the program. It takes a rare skater to make me feel again after they fall.

    As for P/E, I have a major, MAJOR problem with skaters like Chan still getting 8s in P/E after falling twice. For what is the second word in there? EXECUTION.

    And the reason I can't take you seriously is because you are Canadian screaming for Patrick Chan and against any of his detractors. Can we say biased? For the record, I am an Australian girl - thus, no nationality biases in this fight.
    If you've read my posts, you'll see that I say positive things about Chan's skating but concede when he should be losing. Apparently on this forum if you say anything positive about Patrick Chan, people assume that you support every one of his victories.

    Apparently you can use a Zamboni the ice rhetoric multiple times and still think you're clever. You're picking one example. Hanyu won NHK with two falls and 4 errors in his freeskate, and Takahashi won the GPF with errors too, including a fall. Kostner swiffered the ice with her butt in the SP and FS, but that's not indicative of how she is as a skater. And they still get 8s in P/E. Oh, but they're not Patrick Chan so you would never go after them.

    You just make it seem like you have an axe to grind every time you mention Chan falls four times and can still win, as if that's been representative of his wins.

    And you saying that I'm screaming for Chan just because I'm Canadian is as typifying and ignorant as if I saidsomething outrageous like you don't know a thing about skating because they don't even have ice in Australia, nor have they ever come up with any decent skaters to come out of Australia so why would your opinion hold any weight.

  10. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by bestskate8 View Post



    When choreography for the program done by professional ballet choreographer or dancer and done in traditional classical style, most people understand the beauty of it. Plushenko always uses this type of resources for his programs, even some type of the consulting will bring up the goods.
    It is exactly Plushenko's programs are very artistic and more welcomed by general viewers.
    His natural soft, charismatic, convincing skating glues people attention to him and what he is doing on ice.
    The choreographer was Yuri Smekalov, dancer and choreoghrapher in Kirov Ballet, but I think you know that. He is the choreographer of Gachinsky new Anna Karenina program. I can't wait it!!!
    Maybe you miss this german documentary from 2004. How they made the Nijinsky program and shows us the racing between Plushy and Joubert in ECH and WCH 2004. Fantastic documentary!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2841lVtRMQ

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    If you've read my posts, you'll see that I say positive things about Chan's skating but concede when he should be losing. Apparently on this forum if you say anything positive about Patrick Chan, people assume that you support every one of his victories.

    Apparently you can use a Zamboni the ice rhetoric multiple times and still think you're clever. You're picking one example. Hanyu won NHK with two falls and 4 errors in his freeskate, and Takahashi won the GPF with errors too, including a fall. Kostner swiffered the ice with her butt in the SP and FS, but that's not indicative of how she is as a skater. And they still get 8s in P/E. Oh, but they're not Patrick Chan so you would never go after them.

    You just make it seem like you have an axe to grind every time you mention Chan falls four times and can still win, as if that's been representative of his wins.

    And you saying that I'm screaming for Chan just because I'm Canadian is as typifying and ignorant as if I saidsomething outrageous like you don't know a thing about skating because they don't even have ice in Australia, nor have they ever come up with any decent skaters to come out of Australia so why would your opinion hold any weight.
    This post is about Chan's performance so naturally he is the subject to discuss, isn't it? If Plushenko said that he does not agree with one the results you mentioned above, then the post would be discussing about that case, plus discussing about Plushenko is artistic or not (which is just common trend when coming to Plushenko). But of course Patrick's name would certain appear in the post (assuming we would discuss about Hanyu) as an example: "maybe Hanyu's mark is not so convincing, but how about Patrick's mark in ? (pick one of his win with multiple falls)?". All the examples or controversial results listed here only contribute to the fact that the rules need some adjustment.

    Other people have been over marked does not mean then everybody should feel OK about the system and stopping complaining about Chan's marks, it only means the system needs adjustment.

  12. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    If you've read my posts, you'll see that I say positive things about Chan's skating but concede when he should be losing. Apparently on this forum if you say anything positive about Patrick Chan, people assume that you support every one of his victories.

    Apparently you can use a Zamboni the ice rhetoric multiple times and still think you're clever. You're picking one example. Hanyu won NHK with two falls and 4 errors in his freeskate, and Takahashi won the GPF with errors too, including a fall. Kostner swiffered the ice with her butt in the SP and FS, but that's not indicative of how she is as a skater. And they still get 8s in P/E. Oh, but they're not Patrick Chan so you would never go after them.

    You just make it seem like you have an axe to grind every time you mention Chan falls four times and can still win, as if that's been representative of his wins.

    And you saying that I'm screaming for Chan just because I'm Canadian is as typifying and ignorant as if I saidsomething outrageous like you don't know a thing about skating because they don't even have ice in Australia, nor have they ever come up with any decent skaters to come out of Australia so why would your opinion hold any weight.
    Yes, I am picking one example. But I happen to think that any skater who falls twice or more and still wins has a tainted victory. Hanyu's, Kosner's are other examples of exactly what is wrong with this judging system. It's appalling that skaters can be human zambonis and still win. It should not happen. And the example was relevant since the discussion was about CHAN. If the discussion had been about Kostner or Hanyu, then we could have used their examples too.

    Of course I have an axe to grind. Should I not find it angering and irritating that one skater now has to do little more than trip around the ice for four and a half minutes to win? Do you not see the inherent wrongness of a skater falling multiple times and finishing ahead of a skater who skated, at difficulty, clean? Since when has it become "okay" to fall all over the place rather than land your jumps? Maybe if Chan put in as much effort into LANDING HIS JUMPS as he did the stupidly busy transitions, his victories would not be so controversial.

  13. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Patrick is not as artistic as Jeremy Abbott. But he is more artistic than many top skaters including Plushenko ( I don't want revenge, either). Has Plushenko ever been compared with John Curry - the legendary British artistic skater who combined ballet and modern dance with figure skating? Well, Patrick had, by one of the euro sport commentator. Patrick was said to have a bit touch of John Curry but much more athletic. And you call that "isn't artistry"?
    No, he was never compared to other skater from the past in terms of style and I hope he´ll never be. Plushenko is not the second X, he is Plushenko.
    He was compared to Alexander Godunov, probably because they resemble physically.
    Chan and Curry have nothing in common. Curry had a real ballet training, he probably was the only ballet dancer on skates.

  14. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by karne View Post
    Yes, I am picking one example. But I happen to think that any skater who falls twice or more and still wins has a tainted victory. Hanyu's, Kosner's are other examples of exactly what is wrong with this judging system. It's appalling that skaters can be human zambonis and still win. It should not happen. And the example was relevant since the discussion was about CHAN. If the discussion had been about Kostner or Hanyu, then we could have used their examples too.

    Of course I have an axe to grind. Should I not find it angering and irritating that one skater now has to do little more than trip around the ice for four and a half minutes to win? Do you not see the inherent wrongness of a skater falling multiple times and finishing ahead of a skater who skated, at difficulty, clean? Since when has it become "okay" to fall all over the place rather than land your jumps? Maybe if Chan put in as much effort into LANDING HIS JUMPS as he did the stupidly busy transitions, his victories would not be so controversial.
    When have I ever said that it's okay for skaters who make tons of errors to win against those who skate clean or that a win with 2 falls can be considered a great victory? It's a horrible thing when falls happen for ANY skater and they win or place high, but you also have to look at the competition, at the SP performances, and the quality of skating amongst the field. Obviously it's not okay to fall, but you make it sound like Chan's intentionally falling on his jumps -- or that what he's doing is easy and he should be landing everything -- especially when the rest of the field falls, too. I'm not even going to get into you criticizing Chan for putting in transitions (what, should he be telegraphing his jumps?!).

    My supporting his skating has little to do with being Canadian. It has everything to do with him being a skater who is talented, makes the most of the system everyone is working with, and has programs with intricate, original choreography and high difficulty. It doesn't mean I support all of his wins, and I certainly do not. I love Kostner's skating and think she's arguably the finest women's skater now (in terms of skating quality), but I don't support her getting 2nd place after a fall in the SP + 2 major errors in her FS... if not for Kim, Kostner would have won Worlds with 2 falls and a singled loop -- almost as many errors as Chan made overall. Essentially, I agree with you that Chan beating Ten/Hanyu's NHK win/Virtue-Moir's SD fall but still placing 2nd/Kostner's 2nd SP, and the list goes on... are all examples of what is wrong with the system.

    But when people only go after Chan and make sweeping statements that are reflective of only a minority of his wins in the past, as if that should be indicative of how he is now, it's unfair and hypocritical since several top skaters have had terribly skated programs with falls - recently too - and have won. It's also unfair to use ONE example of where he happened to win with 4 falls (a win which I have said he does not deserve) as the 'example' of his skating. He's never fallen more than 2 times in his FS (in any competition that he's won). And 2/3 of his victories have happened with 1 fall or no falls over both the SP & FS. So it's pretty misleading, and frankly delusional, to say he wins with falls all the time. And saying he "can" win with 2 falls is also misleading because that is in the past when his competition hadn't closed the gap on him, skating-wise.

  15. #285
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    It might mean Yuzu also agrees with Plush : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRenPv0oles

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