Plushenko: Chan Does Not Deserve World Title

LRK said:

You don't see what you said as "bashing"? Well, neither is anyone bashing Chan - just his "sometimes unfortunate behaviour"... What's sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander.

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Touche

yaya124 said:

The poster's ID "ice diva" says it all

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Thank you -- looove my handle; gives me license to throw hissy fits & recognize divos.

Bluebonnet said:

It's useless and irrelevant to list all his accomplishments in the past in this case. Plushenko is going to compete in Sochi. It looks like he has started his PR work now.

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I don't think, this isn't Plushy's method. And if you were right, would be the "sour grape" is not a good term.

Bluebonnet said:

It's useless and irrelevant to list all his accomplishments in the past in this case. Plushenko is going to compete in Sochi. It looks like he has started his PR work now.

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Plushenko has being voicing his opinion regarding all Words results-when he was asked, regardless of competing or not, that included 2007, 2008 or later worlds. Back in 2011, he singled out Hanyu as the one to beat in Sochi, he has talked about Fernandez too, if everyone is voicing their opinion on internet about Worlds, I think he is entitled to his own, and he is not the only one to question the result. He certainly did not object to 2011 results, surprisingly i havent read anything about Nice too.

plushyfan said:

I don't think, this isn't Plushy's method. And if you were right, would be the "sour grape" is not a good term.

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That's your opinion. it's not a fact. I agree that "sour grape" is not a right term for it.

seniorita said:

Plushenko has being voicing his opinion regarding all Words results-when he was asked, regardless of competing or not, that included 2007, 2008 or later worlds. Back in 2011, he singled out Hanyu as the one to beat in Sochi, he has talked about Fernandez too, if everyone is voicing their opinion on internet about Worlds, I think he is entitled to his own, and he is not the only one to question the result. He certainly did not object to 2011 results, surprisingly i havent read anything about Nice too.

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Yes, he deserved his opinion like everyone else. However, the thing is that he has based his personal opinion on the un-founded allegation which is unacceptable. That has made him look desperate. It definitely looked like that he has started his PR work in order to build up his road to Sochi.

We all say opinions not facts anyway.
If anything else if I were Plushenko I would start the campaign against Hanyu who rocks the sps and Fernandez who rocks the Lps, not Chan. I dont always agree with Plu on what he says,but i saw nothing desperate on stating the obvious that many people said anyway.

Bluebonnet said:

Yes, he deserved his opinion like everyone else. However, the thing is that he has based his personal opinion on the un-founded allegation which is unacceptable. That has made him look desperate. It definitely looked like that he has started his PR work in order to build up his road to Sochi.

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That is your opinion.

I do think his opinion on Canadian skating federation is kind of valid if you agree that powerful skating federations (not only referring to Canada, but US, Russia too, just to be fair) have their influences on ISU/judging, etc. Since none of the skaters in this world can have such influence personally upon judges, the only valid assumption is "powerful skating federations influence the results" (corrupting the system).

As for his "PR", he has long ago started it. I think in most of his interviews over the years (after Vancouver) he stated very clear that he want to compete in Sochi. However, since he is injured now and not knowing whether he could compete again, your theory of PR work is not so credible, isn't it?

yaya124 said:

That is your opinion.

I do think his opinion on Canadian skating federation is kind of valid if you agree that powerful skating federations (not only referring to Canada, but US, Russia too, just to be fair) have their influences on ISU/judging, etc. Since none of the skaters in this world can have such influence personally upon judges, the only valid assumption is "powerful skating federations influence the results" (corrupting the system).

As for his "PR", he has long ago started it. I think in most of his interviews over the years (after Vancouver) he stated very clear that he want to compete in Sochi. However, since he is injured now and not knowing whether he could compete again, your theory of PR work is not so credible, isn't it?

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Where?! Point it out to me, please! You don't have evidence. You just have a big assumption! You've just assumed that the result was wrong. So from here you have not been standing on a fair ground. Have you ever thought that based on current IJS, Chan's scores might be fair? No, you haven't. You just assumed that the judges are all bribed and corrupted. Such kind of allegation deserves no attention from ISU and the judges because what you've said are un-founded and baseless.

Even though he was not on ice now, he is very much expected by himself and by all people to be in Sochi and it is his dream. So why not starting from the off ice?

seniorita said:

We all say opinions not facts anyway.
If anything else if I were Plushenko I would start the campaign against Hanyu who rocks the sps and Fernandez who rocks the Lps, not Chan. I dont always agree with Plu on what he says,but i saw nothing desperate on stating the obvious that many people said anyway.

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No doubt that Chan is one of the biggest barriers for Plushenko's success in Sochi. Plushenko, no doubt, has the strength of consistency on ice. But he cannot compete with Chan on quad alone anymore. Very likely Plushenko can only have one quad in SP and one quad in LP for the most, if he could ever jump a quad. Chan regularly has three. He cannot compete with Chan on footworks, TR, CH, and SS either. All he has left to compete with Chan is his consistency. So focus on Chan's inconsistency is natural.

Bluebonnet said:

Where?! Point it out to me, please! You don't have evidence. You just have a big assumption! You've just assumed that the result was wrong. So from here you have not been standing on a fair ground. Have you ever thought that based on current IJS, Chan's scores might be fair? No, you haven't. You just assumed that the judges are all bribed and corrupted. Such kind of allegation deserves no attention from ISU and the judges because what you've said are un-founded and baseless.

Even though he was not on ice now, he is very much expected by himself and by all people to be in Sochi and it is his dream. So why not starting from the off ice?

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I think my English is too bad so cannot make you understand me clearly. What you said is your opinion, I think that is correct, right? As for others, what I meant is that IF you agree on big skating federations can influence ISU or judges, then you can draw such conclusion. I never said about bribe, but of course corruption in many people minds=bribe.

Yes, I do not think Chan's score is fair, but I actually think under IJS probably Chan's win is OK. I argued in this post about the judging standard, and thought that the system needs some adjustment.

As a Plushenko fan, of course I would like to see him standing on the podium, but if his skating according to the IJS is worse than Chan in the same competition, than I have no problem of Chan winning. (of course, if the PCS judging is similar as this WC or WTT, that is, multiple big errors ending up with high PE and IN points, I would probably still argue about the judging standard and complaining Chan is over scored). But all these depends on if Plushenko would be healthy enough to attend Oly.

yaya124 said:

what I meant is that IF you agree on big skating federations can influence ISU or judges, then you can draw such conclusion. I never said about bribe, but of course corruption in many people minds=bribe.

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Sorry, my English is not good enough either but let me ask, what kind of influence? What is your definition of "corruption"? What did ISU or the judges do in this particular competition? I'd like to ask the same question to Plushenko. And I bet he cannot answer it.

Yes, current IJS was created based on some Canadian expert's ideas. Yes, some Canadian expert has given several seminars on how to judging a few years ago. But the same Canadian expert has choreographed tons of CoP friendly programs for different skaters from different countries. If Canadian skaters have benefited from it, the other countries have benefited from it too. If what you've said about influence was not related to this specific competition, then it is irrelevant. Will you assume that Sochi will be definitely corrupted by Russian federation because it is in Russia?!

Everyone can have their opinions, of course, and no one is an exception, Plushenko or Chan or whoever. That said, whether or not I agree with Plushenko on Chan's 13 Worlds win, he does come across rather poorly here. The whole platinum medal thing from the 2010 was nasty enough when it made a big splash on news and media, and now this.

I think I would appreciate his opinions as what they are if he's simply commenting as one of the greatest figure skaters in history and not as an active participant in competition, but he was criticizing Lysacek right after he competed against him and lost (again, whether I agree with Plushenko on the point of quad is another issue altogether), and now, he may potentially compete against Chan next year, and he's tearing down his competition (and once again, whether he really doesn't think Chan's a worthy competition or not is beside the point). Whether his opinions have merits or not, it just comes across as a poor sport (not to make a pun, but). He's done this one too many times.

Bluebonnet said:

Sorry, my English is not good enough either but let me ask, what kind of influence? What is your definition of "corruption"? What did ISU or the judges do in this particular competition? I'd like to ask the same question to Plushenko. And I bet he cannot answer it.

Yes, current IJS was created based on some Canadian expert's ideas. Yes, some Canadian expert has given several seminars on how to judging a few years ago. But the same Canadian expert has choreographed tons of CoP friendly programs for different skaters from different countries. If Canadian skaters have benefited from it, the other countries have benefited from it too. If what you've said about influence was not related to this specific competition, then it is irrelevant. Will you assume that Sochi will be definitely corrupted by Russian federation because it is in Russia?!

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IF the people as small and nobody as me can provide proof of corruption in ISU, it would be a big surprise, isn't it? Same with any people, including Plushenko actually, who are not directly involved in it. But we all know in such organization, power play does exist, just like any organization, assuming none would be naive. Evidence? No. Assumption? As wild as it is, yes.

Plushenko expressed it as personal opinion, he definitely is not alone on this opinion. If you think it is inappropriate, so be it.

As for whether people would suggest the outcome of Sochi Olympics will be influenced by Russian Skating federation as long as the results would not satisfy their expectation, I am sure they would. And as a host country, Russia will get certain favor from judges, that is common practice, if anyone assumed there would be none, that is also call naive.

yaya124 said:

Evidence? No. Assumption? As wild as it is, yes.

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Then I have nothing more to say about it.

It's a bit of a baseless assumption to assume the judges are being bribed by federations. Of course, this is figure skating and politics are definitely in play, but politics don't make the skaters skate well or poorly. I think the season has shown that many skaters do well, even with errors, and the judges have their favourites. Whether this is a product of federation is hard to say... Chan wins over Ten who's from a smaller, less influential federation (compared to Canada)... but then the Germans (who arguably have a federation with less say than Canada) could have easily stayed in 3rd or even off the podium at Worlds behind the two Canadian pairs.

Whatever...so PLuhenko talks so that judges do hear and mark Chan down. We all think like armchair judges but elite athletes do not have that kind of mindset, if they spend time thinking now who will i drag down they wouldn't be champions, and if they step on ice thinking who will have to beat they are doomed, thats been mentioned from many skaters, their competition is themselves, and Pluhenko's right now is his health.

Bluebonnet said:

. Very likely Plushenko can only have one quad in SP and one quad in LP for the most, if he could ever jump a quad. Chan regularly has three.

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Does he? Chan doesnt need an anti campaign, he manages it perfecty alone.But if he skates like worlds 2011 it would be a perfect Oly Gold performance.

seniorita said:

Chan doesnt need an anti campaign, he manages it perfecty alone.

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seniorita said:

Whatever...so PLuhenko talks so that judges do hear and mark Chan down. We all think like armchair judges but elite athletes do not have that kind of mindset, if they spend time thinking now who will i drag down they wouldn't be champions, and if they step on ice thinking who will have to beat they are doomed, thats been mentioned from many skaters, their competition is themselves, and Pluhenko's right now is his health.

Does he? Chan doesnt need an anti campaign, he manages it perfecty alone.But if he skates like worlds 2011 it would be a perfect Oly Gold performance.

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So it's okay when Plushenko talks so that the judges hear and then mark down Chan, but then you cry foul when people (like Inman) campaigned against Plushenko resulting in him being marked down? Cheating is cheating, and if Plushenko's purpose is to start getting the judges to reduce his opponents' scores to give himself a shot, that's pretty low (and I don't think that's what he's doing, he's just stating his opinion). Nothing Plushenko says or doesn't say will change the fact that Takahashi/Hanyu/Fernandez/Chan will all likely outscore him on PCS at the Olympics. I wish this actually convinces him to have a well-choreographed program instead of just a slew of jumps.

It's so frustrating with him. His footwork sequences indicate that he's clearly capable of executing complex turns, and he's able to do jumps with practically no speed (like his 3A-1/2loop-3F), so it's ridiculous that he wouldn't incorporate more transitions/content into the rest of his program. He's clearly capable of doing jumps at the drop of a hat, so he should balance his programs more and gain bonus in both 10% TES and also 'proportion' to boost his Choreography marks - I mean, an asthmatic like Hanyu puts 5 jumping passes and two 3As after the halfway point. He's expressive at standstills, so you'd think he'd carry that over to when he's even stroking, instead of just motoring around the ice with stiff arms and a focused look. It's small details that really could still keep him in contention, but I don't expect to see it since he probably still thinks that a quad in a clean SP and a quad in a clean FS, and not much improvement in his overall program, is going to cut it. I would love for him to prove me wrong though, but he's always primarily relied on technical consistency and high jump difficulty so I can't see him all of a sudden developing the skating quality/artistry of some of the top guys.

Instead of campaigning against other skaters, maybe he should focus more on how he can improve his own skating and programs in order to compete with them in Sochi.

I thought it was clear I was being sarcastic I doubt judges listen to Plushenko, and unless he sents an email to 60 judges I dont find any resemblance to Inman 's case. I dont know what campaign he is suppose to have released, I ve only read an interview during Worlds.
Plush pcs at Euros 2012 were 88 I think, with not much effort. I agree he is capable of more.

I thought the point was clearly athletes can't be spending time campaigning against other athletes? LOL? They have to be focused on themselves and their skating! They have to skate well and try to hope for some campaign to work? And he has no say with judges? LOL? Judges have the say to other judges!

Complex turns and no speed does not mean that programs should have all moves for no reason! But that is what IJS demands in so many ways. That regardless of artistic need skates need to have non-stop movement! That is why Chan is champion because his programs are expert as non-stop and sometimes a lot of the time nonsense movement for no reason! The issues of Plushenko talent being extended to moves for no reason is valid for success of IJS and he always respects the steps into solo jump in the SP if he has no mistakes. Like his steps into lutz are good. I think when it is totally required he shows he can do it like his steps into lutz in SP!!

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

and he's able to do jumps with practically no speed (like his 3A-1/2loop-3F)

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Exactly when did Plushenko last time do 3A-1/2L-3F? The only time I know was when he was 19 years old at 2002 Olympics.

Bluebonnet said:

Exactly when did Plushenko last time do 3A-1/2L-3F? The only time I know was when he was 19 years old at 2002 Olympics.

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No. He did in 2003 and 2004.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C29DHIrWj-8 2' 34" 2003 WCh not perfect
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShH2dvsEuMk 2' 20" 2004 WCH