Chan: I truly believe I deserved to win

Ilvskating · Mar 21, 2013

After looking at the protocol, I do believe Chan deserve to win. Both Chan and Ten doubled a jump, for Chan it was lutz, and Ten the flip. Chan had about 3 points higher base value even with the under-rotated 3A and 2Lutz. Combine that with the 7 points lead in SP, Chan had a cushion of 10 points over Ten. From GOE and mandatory deduction for falls, it cost him about 3.6 for the lutz, 4 for the 3A and a bit over 1 for the three jump combo, that's a total of over 8.6 point, less than the cushion he had. In addition, his 4T and 4T-3T gave him huge GOE because of the quality, so he won from the lead of SP, the the higher BV as well as the elements he did well. Ten did get higher performance/execution marks in the PCS. In fact I'm a bit surprised about the high PCS Ten got. Don't get me wrong, I'm thrilled for Ten. I was there and I cheered for him loudly. But Chan had better and more complex program and better skating skills. Chan simply skated bigger than anybody else even with the falls (from which he recovered very quickly). It's not a good way to win but under the current system he did deserve the win.

bekalc · Mar 21, 2013

Ilvskating said:
After looking at the protocol, I do believe Chan deserve to win. Both Chan and Ten doubled a jump, for Chan it was lutz, and Ten the flip. Chan had about 3 points higher base value even with the under-rotated 3A and 2Lutz. Combine that with the 7 points lead in SP, Chan had a cushion of 10 points over Ten. From GOE and mandatory deduction for falls, it cost him about 3.6 for the lutz, 4 for the 3A and a bit over 1 for the three jump combo, that's a total of over 8.6 point, less than the cushion he had. In addition, his 4T and 4T-3T gave him huge GOE because of the quality, so he won from the lead of SP, the the higher BV as well as the elements he did well. Ten did get higher performance/execution marks in the PCS. In fact I'm a bit surprised about the high PCS Ten got. Don't get me wrong, I'm thrilled for Ten. I was there and I cheered for him loudly. But Chan had better and more complex program and better skating skills. Chan simply skated bigger than anybody else even with the falls (from which he recovered very quickly). It's not a good way to win but under the current system he did deserve the win.

Ten BARELY got higher P/E than Chan it was negligible, he should have cleaned Chan's marks. I fail to see how Chan got 90 in pcs just about with that performance, Dai who was cleaner only got an 85,. Chan was overscored no amount of "numbers" which the judges hand over will convince me otherwise.... After all its the cheating judges who make the numbers.

Leonardo · Mar 21, 2013

bekalc said:
Ten BARELY got higher P/E than Chan it was negligible, he should have cleaned Chan's marks. I fail to see how Chan got 90 in pcs just about with that performance, Dai who was cleaner only got an 85,. Chan was overscored no amount of "numbers" which the judges hand over will convince me otherwise.... After all its the cheating judges who make the numbers.

Exactly!!!!!!!!

Ilvskating · Mar 21, 2013

bekalc said:
You can double a jump and still be clean. I don't want to see skaters doubling jumps, but Ten still landed all of his jumps properly. And its not like he spent all of his time doubling his jumps, he did far more clean triples than Chan...I don't think its right at all to say Ten wasn't clean. He wasn't perfect, but he certainly was clean.

Actually, Chan did 2 clean quads, a 3A and 5 triples, Ten did 1 quad, two 3A and 4 other triples. Chan just did more over 3-revolution jumps than Ten did. Both skaters doubled a triple jump. So although Ten was clean he had a much easier jumping content. That's why even with the ur 3A, Chan still has higher BV.

I certainly didn't want to see a champion with so many errors in the LP but that's life, like it or not, he did enough to win at that night, pure luck.

bekalc · Mar 21, 2013

Ilvskating said:
Actually, Chan did 2 clean quads, a 3A and 5 triples, Ten did 1 quad, two 3A and 4 other triples. Chan just did more over 3-revolution jumps than Ten did. Both skaters doubled a triple jump. So although Ten was clean he had a much easier jumping content. That's why even with the ur 3A, Chan still has higher BV.

I certainly didn't want to see a champion with so many errors in the LP but that's life, like it or not, he did enough to win at that night, pure luck.

Patrick, fell. I don't consider what he did at triple axel. Chan did altogether only 4 clean triples in his program. Denis did 6clean triples. Three of Chan's jumping passes had major visible errors (I'm not counting doubles,) non of Ten's did.

Denis also didn't have a single negative GOE...Same cannot be said for Chan. Just because the judges say it doesn't even merrit (a half of point higher on PCS) doesn't mean Ten didn't cream him on execution.

Its ridiculous Chan is able to win with those kind of messes for programs. And its not like this is a one off for Patrick. He can't execute those programs cleanly. So why are they giving him these kind of PCS marks. Its not like its just one major error. I'm sorry I'm tired of chan getting rewarded for messiness.

Denis did everything in his programs well...

Leonardo · Mar 21, 2013

Ilvskating said:
Actually, Chan did 2 clean quads, a 3A and 5 triples, Ten did 1 quad, two 3A and 4 other triples. Chan just did more over 3-revolution jumps than Ten did. Both skaters doubled a triple jump. So although Ten was clean he had a much easier jumping content. That's why even with the ur 3A, Chan still has higher BV.

I certainly didn't want to see a champion with so many errors in the LP but that's life, like it or not, he did enough to win at that night, pure luck.

LOL. 3 points less in BV is not much easier jumping content. And Patrick's 3A was ur. And no, it wasn't pure luck. Hanyu was much cleaner than Patrick was and he still got less goe's than Chan did. Not to mention the pcs. Any other skater would get much lower pcs for such a failure. And it's not like Patrick is a brilliant artist who interprets the music better than anyone else. He also got more in PE than someone like, Javier Fernandez. This is obviously overscoring and favoritism.

itoja · Mar 21, 2013

bekalc said:
Patrick, fell. I don't consider what he did at triple axel. Chan did altogether only 4 clean triples in his program. Denis did 6clean triples. Three of Chan's jumping passes had major visible errors (I'm not counting doubles,) non of Ten's did.

You are too generous, you cannot call the forth triple Chan did -3S, clean. Chan didn't do any of the hardest triples, not 3A nor 3Lz, he only did 3T, 3F, 3Lo and something close to 3S.

bekalc · Mar 21, 2013

itoja said:
You are too generous, you cannot call the forth triple Chan did -3S, clean. Chan didn't do any of the hardest triples, not 3A nor 3Lz, he only did 3T, 3F, 3Lo and something close to 3S.

Patrick tried them he just didn't land them.

itoja · Mar 21, 2013

Ilvskating said:
Actually, Chan did 2 clean quads, a 3A and 5 triples,

So now a fall means the jump is done?

emdee · Mar 21, 2013

Ilvskating said:
After looking at the protocol, I do believe Chan deserve to win. Both Chan and Ten doubled a jump, for Chan it was lutz, and Ten the flip. Chan had about 3 points higher base value even with the under-rotated 3A and 2Lutz. Combine that with the 7 points lead in SP, Chan had a cushion of 10 points over Ten. From GOE and mandatory deduction for falls, it cost him about 3.6 for the lutz, 4 for the 3A and a bit over 1 for the three jump combo, that's a total of over 8.6 point, less than the cushion he had. In addition, his 4T and 4T-3T gave him huge GOE because of the quality, so he won from the lead of SP, the the higher BV as well as the elements he did well. Ten did get higher performance/execution marks in the PCS. In fact I'm a bit surprised about the high PCS Ten got. Don't get me wrong, I'm thrilled for Ten. I was there and I cheered for him loudly. But Chan had better and more complex program and better skating skills. Chan simply skated bigger than anybody else even with the falls (from which he recovered very quickly). It's not a good way to win but under the current system he did deserve the win.

ITA
I was also there and felt that Chan skated bigger and had more complex choreo than Ten.
Ten made a great effort but the Short program lead was to big for him to catch up

Bentley · Mar 21, 2013

Chan always has had a smart mouth. He really needs to learn a little humility.

babayaga · Mar 21, 2013

emdee said:
ITA
I was also there and felt that Chan skated bigger and had more complex choreo than Ten.
Ten made a great effort but the Short program lead was to big for him to catch up

I think this is the biggest question I have - maybe the short program lead should not have been that big to begin with?

TontoK · Mar 21, 2013

^^^ Exactly. Chan's short program was excellent... but it was overscored.

Ilvskating · Mar 21, 2013

itoja said:
You are too generous, you cannot call the forth triple Chan did -3S, clean. Chan didn't do any of the hardest triples, not 3A nor 3Lz, he only did 3T, 3F, 3Lo and something close to 3S.

I guess the two quads can be considered as hard triples, one more revolution harder

Ilvskating · Mar 21, 2013

itoja said:
So now a fall means the jump is done?

I feel it amusing when people passionately debating if somebody deserve their win when they don't know the basics of rules for judging the sport.
I like Patrick Chan's skating but I'm not a uber fan. I actually favored javier to win before the competition. I guess I just feel it is wrong when people attack certain athlete as though they are criminal.

Patrick on the other hand should keep his mouth shut but I guess it is hard to do it when you are provoked to give an answer. S/S said something like "I guess we just did enough" when they won a world title with multiple mistakes.

hippomoomin · Mar 22, 2013

What I am thinking?
Chan is a very naive person, who says whatever pops up in her month. He seriously needs some PR management which wouldn't cost him that much when compared with coaching fees.
On the other hand, if you have a controversial win, would you say "the other skater did better?"
If you say that, you are offending all the judges by saying "hey, you shouldn't give me the big marks", and next time, you are going to get hammered by the judges.
By saying "I deserve to win," he sends message to the judges that "hey, I am grateful that you gave me those marks and the marks are what I deserve"

In this regard, he is a smart person, because whatever we say here doesn't matter at all to his score. It is the judges that matter.

let`s talk · Mar 22, 2013

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
If anything, I think the judges wanted to give Ten the victory, but after the SP there was simply no room.

Lol at the idea that judges wanted to make Ten WC before SP. Or at any other time. :laugh:

yaya124 · Mar 22, 2013

To be honest, under COP now, I would say Chan's win is not pretty but that is what COP can produce. So yes, his win on this one can be referring as "deserved". But this means only one thing: COP needs changes.

Chan in someone's eyes might be the greatest skaters ever, but to win a World title like that, it is just scandalous. No matter how great Chan is, that free skate is plain sloppy (and IMO his jumps even the clean ones are quite tight and heavy), and with that free skate he can still win means either his marks are not right, or the system itself is flawed. You can argue either way. (of course, if all the skaters were as bad, it is another matter)

Regarding Chan's comments, you can argue that he is lack of PR training. But how many years Chan has been put under spotlight now? Apparently he does not think what he said is inappropriate, probably he thought his interview is being funny and light-heart instead of being arrogant.

He probably regarded himself as one of the greatest skater and judging from the way he is getting his titles he has the right to think so. But really? He seldom delivers clean programs. Sure he could argue what he did on ice is extremely difficult. Bravo for him to try, but failure is failure, can he boast his technique while falling on the simple triple jumps all over the places? Yes, jump is not everything, but transition is also not everything.

What I am trying to say is, COP system is terribly flawed to have such results, and Chan should just say he got lucky this time and will try his best to make it right next time.

aftertherain · Mar 22, 2013

Chan deserved to win with the skating skills and technical arsenal that we know he has, but he did not deserve the World title based on the skills he showcased in that men's free skate. Judges need to judge on not what he is capable of, but what he actually puts out.

Jaana · Mar 22, 2013

babayaga said:
But that's the interesting part - you say the skaters did not deliver, but then you say yourself that Ten delivered.

Ten was not a skater with reputation (which he now has gotten) like Takahashi, Hanyu and Fernandez which did not deliver in the expected way.

Chan: I truly believe I deserved to win

Ilvskating

bekalc

Leonardo

Ilvskating

bekalc

Leonardo

itoja

bekalc

itoja

emdee

Bentley

babayaga

TontoK

Hot Tonto

Ilvskating

Ilvskating

hippomoomin

let`s talk

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yaya124

aftertherain

Jaana

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