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Thread: If the IJS had been used in the past, what would be different?

  1. #1
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    If the IJS had been used in the past, what would be different?

    With all the talk of which system is better, I'm wondering which skaters under the 6.0 system would have done better or worse with the IJS or COP.

    This is my analysis:
    Would've done worse with new system:
    1. Surya Bonaly. Wasn't she hated for her bad edges, and didn't she often run across the ice?
    2. Sarah/Tara. They were never skaters' skaters, and were often criticized for bad edges or UR's (at least in Sarah's case). I think their gold medals would be in jeopardy under the new system.

    Hard to tell.
    1. Michelle. She skated sort of slow at times and didn't always do the harder combos, but her fall in 2002 wouldn't have been as costly, and she was always so beautiful to watch.

    2. Controversial winners/losers of 1994. Oksana Baiul didn't land a triple/triple, but I could see her getting some sort of PCS bonus from all her tap dancing. Or I could see the judges hating it and Nancy Kerrigan benefiting.

    The same with Elvis Stojko and the man in the puffy blouse, Alexei Urmanov. I would think that Urmonov's classic style would still be favored over Elvis's kung-fu style, but perhaps the points wouldn't have added up.

    Current People who might have done better under 6.0

    1. Johnny Weir. May have gotten bronze in 2010 for his clean skate.
    2. Evgeni P, 2010 edition. I like Evan, but Evgeni probably would've won that year thanks to his quad under the old system.
    3. Rachael may have done better, as she wouldn't be pressured to get into weird spin positions that she could never quite manage.

    Current people who would not have done as well under 6.0
    1. Patrick
    2. Carolina
    3. Probably Ashley Wagner and Jeremy Abbott.


    This is all conjecture, of course, but it's interesting to think of an alternate universe with different skating stars.

  2. #2
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    That's interesting!
    Quote Originally Posted by Poodlepal View Post
    1. Surya Bonaly. Wasn't she hated for her bad edges, and didn't she often run across the ice?
    And most of her 3-3s were UR... And, she would have received very low GOE and probably poor SS, TR and CH scores.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poodlepal View Post
    3. Rachael may have done better, as she wouldn't be pressured to get into weird spin positions that she could never quite manage.
    And, her UR jumps wouldn't have been probably noticed and penalized, I think that she could have actually been in the top3 at the Olympics in the FS (and also at 2010 SA for example)... I think that both Mao and Joannie in 2010 would have been behind Rachael and Mirai in the FS with the 6.0...

    Quote Originally Posted by Poodlepal View Post
    Current people who would not have done as well under 6.0
    3. Probably Ashley Wagner and Jeremy Abbott.
    I think that Ashley would have done pretty well, considering how consistent she is this season, she doesn't have difficult combos, so she would have been penalized in the SP, but her scores for the FS would have probably been higher...

    And, another skater that would have done A LOT better with the 6.0 is surely Mirai: she wouldn't have been penalized so hardly for her UR jumps...

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    Hmmm hard to say but some that come to mind:

    Surya Bonaly- She probably would win 0 World medals and maybe only 1 or 2 of her European titles. COP would not be her friend.

    Sarah Hughes- No way she wins the 2002 Olympic Gold. She would be many points back of the leaders after the SP, and only have about 3 clean ratified triples in the long. Probably a finish around 7th. Unlikely she ever makes it close to a World medal, heck she might even never make a U.S team with people like Nikidinov who would probably crush her under COP.

    Katarina Witt- I dont see her excelling as much under COP. She mostly deserved her wins in medals as it was, but others from her era would suit the system more.

    Michelle Kwan- I dont see her being as dominant under the new system. Probably 2 or 3 World titles still, but not 5, and possibly some of her U.S titles going to Cohen who could even possibly afford a mistake or two and beat Michelle under COP.

    Tim Goebel- He would be killed in skating skills and overall PCS, and spins, and pretty much everything, even jump GOE would be low and many times he underrotated his jumps.

    Elvis Stojko- I dont think he would have been a COP friendly skater at all.

    Sale & Pelletier- Their simple choreography of Love Story, their weak jumping, and many of their simpler elements would not go over well in COP. They retired at he right time for sure.

    Duchensays- They would have no chance of standing up to the TES of COP.

    Anissina & Peizerat- I love them but I also seem them struggling under COP. They struggled with the more difficult footwork sequences, and were really 6.0 friendly skaters.

    Tara Lipinski- I still think she would have won the 98 Olympic Gold as she fully rotated all her jumps this event, and it was an inspired performance which would have a higher base value by quite a bit than even Kwan's LP I imagine. However some of her other medals and success might have been less. She had small jumps, not great elements, not outstanding PCS probably, she flutzed, and some other times she did UR her jumps.

    94 Gold medalists- I dont think any of Baiul, Gritschuk & Platov, or even Gordeeva & Grinkov (given their skate that night) would have won under COP. Urmanov I am not sure.


    Skaters who would benefit:

    Irina Slutskaya- Love her or hate her COP was very suited to her strengths, and she probably would have won more World titles and the 2002 Olympic Gold under COP.

    Shizuka Arakawa- She would have risen to the top faster under COP. At the time of stingy scoring under COP she managed a 125 at the Olympics with only 5 triples.

    Todd Eldredge- Would have scored very high under COP as he did everything very well and checked all the COP boxes.

    Petrova & Tikhonov- They did quite well under COP even past their primes, in their primes they would have done even better.

    Shishkova & Naumov- Their elements were very strong, and their skating skills and lines were impeccable. They just didnt excite or move people enough for 6.0



    Skaters who would do worse under 6.0:

    Patrick Chan- the poster boy for all that is wrong with COP. Would unquestionably have lost out on atleast 70% of his international wins and medals, and 2 of his 3 Worlds, 1 of his 2 Grand Prix final titles, his 2010 World silver.

    Zhangs- Good at collecting points, but their skating would not have been so beloved overall under 6.0.

    Savchenko & Szolkowy- Cleanliness was more important under 6.0, not generally their strong suit.



    Skaters who would have done better under 6.0:

    Mirai Nagasu- UR jumps wouldnt be as much of a problem and she does bring WOW factor to her performances when she skates well.

    Caroline Zhang- The judges would still not be impressed with her jumps and lack of speed, but her positive qualities would be able to be more rewarded, and she often lands stands those ugly jumps up, and if her competitors dont she would do well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post

    Michelle Kwan- I dont see her being as dominant under the new system. Probably 2 or 3 World titles still, but not 5, and possibly some of her U.S titles going to Cohen who could even possibly afford a mistake or two and beat Michelle under COP.


    Tara Lipinski- I still think she would have won the 98 Olympic Gold as she fully rotated all her jumps this event, and it was an inspired performance which would have a higher base value by quite a bit than even Kwan's LP I imagine. However some of her other medals and success might have been less. She had small jumps, not great elements, not outstanding PCS probably, she flutzed, and some other times she did UR her jumps.
    Michelle would have cleaned up on GOE points and PCS over Tara at the Olympics. She would have lost points on base value because she did 8 jumping passes and didn't have a 3-3. But she probably could have gained a lot of them back by adding combos to 2-axels (preferably a triple toe) or adding a three jump combo. She also would would have had a lead on her short program and probably would have done the flip instead of the toe. I say she would have won under COP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jenaj View Post
    Michelle would have cleaned up on GOE points and PCS over Tara at the Olympics. She would have lost points on base value because she did 8 jumping passes and didn't have a 3-3. But she probably could have gained a lot of them back by adding combos to 2-axels (preferably a triple toe) or adding a three jump combo. She also would would have had a lead on her short program and probably would have done the flip instead of the toe. I say she would have won under COP.
    Tara would have wiped the floor with Michelle. She did only 6 jumping passes; under IJS she'd have added another 2Axel. And in the SP she could easily have thrown in 3Loop-3Loop and 3Flip, putting her securely ahead of Michelle. I don't know why she even bothered to do 3Flutz-2Toe when she had 3Loop-3Loop; did anyone in 1998 really think the latter should be valued less?

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    I was watching an old video of Kristi Yamaguchi and Rudy Galindo the other day. They'd have done fairly well under CoP.

    Their long included SBS 3F and SBS 3T; they had a pair spiral into mirror 2A (my favorite pairs move ever). They actually had some good transition elements, even when those were not highly valued.

    Whether they could have won a WC or something like that... maybe not. But I think their placements would have been higher.

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    I regret Midori didn't get a chance to compete under COP. She would have accumulated enough points to blow everyone out of the water in 1988, 1989, 1990. Even in 1992, she wouldn't be so out of the gold medal after the SP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    I regret Midori didn't get a chance to compete under COP. She would have accumulated enough points to blow everyone out of the water in 1988, 1989, 1990. Even in 1992, she wouldn't be so out of the gold medal after the SP.
    Her technical scores would have been huge. And with figures not holding her back she would have dominated. I think her PCS would have suffered a bit since she wasn't the most artistic, but with her speed and jumps, you'd have to think she would have been the one to beat.

    I think Kristi would have done well under either system, probably at her peak and with better spins she could come top 5 at Worlds these days.

    Bonaly unfortunately would have never come close to the podium except for a few Euro titles as mentioned. She's actually used in many videos as an example of poor skating skills in spite of good technical ability. That being said, it was always nice to see her because she really pushed the technical envelope (even with the URs she still went for 3-3/quads), and she was always an "interesting" skater to watch with unconventional music choices and spontaneous choreography. She really brought the drama, too, which skating under CoP.

    I also think CoP is resulting in less "comeback" skates where skaters change around their choreography in a fight to make the podium or still put out a good show. It's so rare to see that these days with the penalties doled out for Zayaking. Lu Chen's attempted 3-3 in her Olympic freeskate and Ito's 3A are two of the best examples that we've never really seen under CoP -- the Germans' 3A though was a good example of what I'm talking about, though.

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    Great Thread!!
    I agree FlattFan, midoris scores would have been monstrous! she had it all, great speed, and good spins along with those inhuman Jumps.
    I think Surya would never have made any podiums, her skating skills were awful beyond belief and her jumps were often ur, even solo triples ( I always admired her confidence though)
    I really do think Tara would have done quite well under IJS, although her jumps were small she did actually rotate them most of the time and her 3lo 3lo would get big points and her 3t+1lo+3s and her pcs would have been good too. I couldnt call who would win 1998 though, that was the closest ladies event ever IMO !

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    I feel like it is too hard to compare because there is no doubt that skaters would have performed differently with different elements and different choreo under COP. It is easy to generalize that some who consistently jumped off of wrong edges or URed (i.e. Sarah Hughes) would have been hurt by this system. But those who had strong tech skills, we can't really say "oh, hey s/he wouldn't have won because of only doing these elements". Tara and Michelle's 1998 LPs, for example, would have looked completely different under this system.

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    Bonaly did have skating skills. Not like kostner but surely 6 or 7. Lots of skaters with clean skates get as much as an 8 from judges. Early cop would have been friendly to surya. When she would do a 3/3 up until 2006-07 it would have got full value! But this also means that if there had always been cop that she may have been better! She stopped in 1998! Imagine figures in 1988 being called by a technical caller and given levels and points that way. Ando and surya tried quads and under early cop they may have gotten full point value and did them more. Sever urs didn't start right away in cop!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I also think CoP is resulting in less "comeback" skates where skaters change around their choreography in a fight to make the podium or still put out a good show. It's so rare to see that these days with the penalties doled out for Zayaking. Lu Chen's attempted 3-3 in her Olympic freeskate and Ito's 3A are two of the best examples that we've never really seen under CoP -- the Germans' 3A though was a good example of what I'm talking about, though.
    Really? I think just the opposite. We've seen skaters from well in the back of the pack after the short claw their way back to the podium. Gracie Gold came back from... I think it was 7th or 8th... and placed second at US Nats, and I think there's a case to be made that she could have won.

    In the days of 6.0 the ordinal system didn't allow that. A skater can be outside the last flight of free skates and still have a shot. Often they're only 3 points or so from the podium. I think it makes the free skate more exciting, because you never know when someone will skate lights out and have that score hold up.

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    I personally don't see the point in imagining who would have won what if the new system existed at that time. The programs would have been completely different and the skaters would have received different training. One can think about how certain skaters might have done in general given their areas of strength, but even there, I question how far you can go.

    Edit: This probably came off sounding more negative than it should have. Sorry.

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    I wonder what Midori's 7 jump pass LP layout would have been like. AFAIK she never did an 8 triple LP because there was no point, she already was the best in technical marks. I think in her top form she could have tried 3Z-3T, 3A, 2A-3T, 3Z, 3F, 3L, 3S-2T-2L.

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    She did an 8 triple program and could put a 3T on anything....

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