If the IJS had been used in the past, what would be different? | Golden Skate

If the IJS had been used in the past, what would be different?

Poodlepal

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
With all the talk of which system is better, I'm wondering which skaters under the 6.0 system would have done better or worse with the IJS or COP.

This is my analysis:
Would've done worse with new system:
1. Surya Bonaly. Wasn't she hated for her bad edges, and didn't she often run across the ice?
2. Sarah/Tara. They were never skaters' skaters, and were often criticized for bad edges or UR's (at least in Sarah's case). I think their gold medals would be in jeopardy under the new system.

Hard to tell.
1. Michelle. She skated sort of slow at times and didn't always do the harder combos, but her fall in 2002 wouldn't have been as costly, and she was always so beautiful to watch.

2. Controversial winners/losers of 1994. Oksana Baiul didn't land a triple/triple, but I could see her getting some sort of PCS bonus from all her tap dancing. Or I could see the judges hating it and Nancy Kerrigan benefiting.

The same with Elvis Stojko and the man in the puffy blouse, Alexei Urmanov. I would think that Urmonov's classic style would still be favored over Elvis's kung-fu style, but perhaps the points wouldn't have added up.

Current People who might have done better under 6.0

1. Johnny Weir. May have gotten bronze in 2010 for his clean skate.
2. Evgeni P, 2010 edition. I like Evan, but Evgeni probably would've won that year thanks to his quad under the old system.
3. Rachael may have done better, as she wouldn't be pressured to get into weird spin positions that she could never quite manage.

Current people who would not have done as well under 6.0
1. Patrick
2. Carolina
3. Probably Ashley Wagner and Jeremy Abbott.


This is all conjecture, of course, but it's interesting to think of an alternate universe with different skating stars.
 

FSGMT

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
That's interesting!
1. Surya Bonaly. Wasn't she hated for her bad edges, and didn't she often run across the ice?
And most of her 3-3s were UR... And, she would have received very low GOE and probably poor SS, TR and CH scores.

3. Rachael may have done better, as she wouldn't be pressured to get into weird spin positions that she could never quite manage.
And, her UR jumps wouldn't have been probably noticed and penalized, I think that she could have actually been in the top3 at the Olympics in the FS (and also at 2010 SA for example)... I think that both Mao and Joannie in 2010 would have been behind Rachael and Mirai in the FS with the 6.0...

Current people who would not have done as well under 6.0
3. Probably Ashley Wagner and Jeremy Abbott.
I think that Ashley would have done pretty well, considering how consistent she is this season, she doesn't have difficult combos, so she would have been penalized in the SP, but her scores for the FS would have probably been higher...

And, another skater that would have done A LOT better with the 6.0 is surely Mirai: she wouldn't have been penalized so hardly for her UR jumps...
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Hmmm hard to say but some that come to mind:

Surya Bonaly- She probably would win 0 World medals and maybe only 1 or 2 of her European titles. COP would not be her friend.

Sarah Hughes- No way she wins the 2002 Olympic Gold. She would be many points back of the leaders after the SP, and only have about 3 clean ratified triples in the long. Probably a finish around 7th. Unlikely she ever makes it close to a World medal, heck she might even never make a U.S team with people like Nikidinov who would probably crush her under COP.

Katarina Witt- I dont see her excelling as much under COP. She mostly deserved her wins in medals as it was, but others from her era would suit the system more.

Michelle Kwan- I dont see her being as dominant under the new system. Probably 2 or 3 World titles still, but not 5, and possibly some of her U.S titles going to Cohen who could even possibly afford a mistake or two and beat Michelle under COP.

Tim Goebel- He would be killed in skating skills and overall PCS, and spins, and pretty much everything, even jump GOE would be low and many times he underrotated his jumps.

Elvis Stojko- I dont think he would have been a COP friendly skater at all.

Sale & Pelletier- Their simple choreography of Love Story, their weak jumping, and many of their simpler elements would not go over well in COP. They retired at he right time for sure.

Duchensays- They would have no chance of standing up to the TES of COP.

Anissina & Peizerat- I love them but I also seem them struggling under COP. They struggled with the more difficult footwork sequences, and were really 6.0 friendly skaters.

Tara Lipinski- I still think she would have won the 98 Olympic Gold as she fully rotated all her jumps this event, and it was an inspired performance which would have a higher base value by quite a bit than even Kwan's LP I imagine. However some of her other medals and success might have been less. She had small jumps, not great elements, not outstanding PCS probably, she flutzed, and some other times she did UR her jumps.

94 Gold medalists- I dont think any of Baiul, Gritschuk & Platov, or even Gordeeva & Grinkov (given their skate that night) would have won under COP. Urmanov I am not sure.


Skaters who would benefit:

Irina Slutskaya- Love her or hate her COP was very suited to her strengths, and she probably would have won more World titles and the 2002 Olympic Gold under COP.

Shizuka Arakawa- She would have risen to the top faster under COP. At the time of stingy scoring under COP she managed a 125 at the Olympics with only 5 triples.

Todd Eldredge- Would have scored very high under COP as he did everything very well and checked all the COP boxes.

Petrova & Tikhonov- They did quite well under COP even past their primes, in their primes they would have done even better.

Shishkova & Naumov- Their elements were very strong, and their skating skills and lines were impeccable. They just didnt excite or move people enough for 6.0



Skaters who would do worse under 6.0:

Patrick Chan- the poster boy for all that is wrong with COP. Would unquestionably have lost out on atleast 70% of his international wins and medals, and 2 of his 3 Worlds, 1 of his 2 Grand Prix final titles, his 2010 World silver.

Zhangs- Good at collecting points, but their skating would not have been so beloved overall under 6.0.

Savchenko & Szolkowy- Cleanliness was more important under 6.0, not generally their strong suit.



Skaters who would have done better under 6.0:

Mirai Nagasu- UR jumps wouldnt be as much of a problem and she does bring WOW factor to her performances when she skates well.

Caroline Zhang- The judges would still not be impressed with her jumps and lack of speed, but her positive qualities would be able to be more rewarded, and she often lands stands those ugly jumps up, and if her competitors dont she would do well.
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
Michelle Kwan- I dont see her being as dominant under the new system. Probably 2 or 3 World titles still, but not 5, and possibly some of her U.S titles going to Cohen who could even possibly afford a mistake or two and beat Michelle under COP.


Tara Lipinski- I still think she would have won the 98 Olympic Gold as she fully rotated all her jumps this event, and it was an inspired performance which would have a higher base value by quite a bit than even Kwan's LP I imagine. However some of her other medals and success might have been less. She had small jumps, not great elements, not outstanding PCS probably, she flutzed, and some other times she did UR her jumps.

Michelle would have cleaned up on GOE points and PCS over Tara at the Olympics. She would have lost points on base value because she did 8 jumping passes and didn't have a 3-3. But she probably could have gained a lot of them back by adding combos to 2-axels (preferably a triple toe) or adding a three jump combo. She also would would have had a lead on her short program and probably would have done the flip instead of the toe. I say she would have won under COP.
 

CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Michelle would have cleaned up on GOE points and PCS over Tara at the Olympics. She would have lost points on base value because she did 8 jumping passes and didn't have a 3-3. But she probably could have gained a lot of them back by adding combos to 2-axels (preferably a triple toe) or adding a three jump combo. She also would would have had a lead on her short program and probably would have done the flip instead of the toe. I say she would have won under COP.

Tara would have wiped the floor with Michelle. She did only 6 jumping passes; under IJS she'd have added another 2Axel. And in the SP she could easily have thrown in 3Loop-3Loop and 3Flip, putting her securely ahead of Michelle. I don't know why she even bothered to do 3Flutz-2Toe when she had 3Loop-3Loop; did anyone in 1998 really think the latter should be valued less?
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
Record Breaker
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Jan 28, 2013
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I was watching an old video of Kristi Yamaguchi and Rudy Galindo the other day. They'd have done fairly well under CoP.

Their long included SBS 3F and SBS 3T; they had a pair spiral into mirror 2A (my favorite pairs move ever). They actually had some good transition elements, even when those were not highly valued.

Whether they could have won a WC or something like that... maybe not. But I think their placements would have been higher.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
I regret Midori didn't get a chance to compete under COP. She would have accumulated enough points to blow everyone out of the water in 1988, 1989, 1990. Even in 1992, she wouldn't be so out of the gold medal after the SP.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I regret Midori didn't get a chance to compete under COP. She would have accumulated enough points to blow everyone out of the water in 1988, 1989, 1990. Even in 1992, she wouldn't be so out of the gold medal after the SP.

Her technical scores would have been huge. And with figures not holding her back she would have dominated. I think her PCS would have suffered a bit since she wasn't the most artistic, but with her speed and jumps, you'd have to think she would have been the one to beat.

I think Kristi would have done well under either system, probably at her peak and with better spins she could come top 5 at Worlds these days.

Bonaly unfortunately would have never come close to the podium except for a few Euro titles as mentioned. She's actually used in many videos as an example of poor skating skills in spite of good technical ability. That being said, it was always nice to see her because she really pushed the technical envelope (even with the URs she still went for 3-3/quads), and she was always an "interesting" skater to watch with unconventional music choices and spontaneous choreography. She really brought the drama, too, which skating under CoP.

I also think CoP is resulting in less "comeback" skates where skaters change around their choreography in a fight to make the podium or still put out a good show. It's so rare to see that these days with the penalties doled out for Zayaking. Lu Chen's attempted 3-3 in her Olympic freeskate and Ito's 3A are two of the best examples that we've never really seen under CoP -- the Germans' 3A though was a good example of what I'm talking about, though.
 

skatel80

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
Great Thread!!
I agree FlattFan, midoris scores would have been monstrous! she had it all, great speed, and good spins along with those inhuman Jumps.
I think Surya would never have made any podiums, her skating skills were awful beyond belief and her jumps were often ur, even solo triples ( I always admired her confidence though)
I really do think Tara would have done quite well under IJS, although her jumps were small she did actually rotate them most of the time and her 3lo 3lo would get big points and her 3t+1lo+3s and her pcs would have been good too. I couldnt call who would win 1998 though, that was the closest ladies event ever IMO !
 

louisa05

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
I feel like it is too hard to compare because there is no doubt that skaters would have performed differently with different elements and different choreo under COP. It is easy to generalize that some who consistently jumped off of wrong edges or URed (i.e. Sarah Hughes) would have been hurt by this system. But those who had strong tech skills, we can't really say "oh, hey s/he wouldn't have won because of only doing these elements". Tara and Michelle's 1998 LPs, for example, would have looked completely different under this system.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Bonaly did have skating skills. Not like kostner but surely 6 or 7. Lots of skaters with clean skates get as much as an 8 from judges. Early cop would have been friendly to surya. When she would do a 3/3 up until 2006-07 it would have got full value! But this also means that if there had always been cop that she may have been better! She stopped in 1998! Imagine figures in 1988 being called by a technical caller and given levels and points that way. Ando and surya tried quads and under early cop they may have gotten full point value and did them more. Sever urs didn't start right away in cop!
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
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Country
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I also think CoP is resulting in less "comeback" skates where skaters change around their choreography in a fight to make the podium or still put out a good show. It's so rare to see that these days with the penalties doled out for Zayaking. Lu Chen's attempted 3-3 in her Olympic freeskate and Ito's 3A are two of the best examples that we've never really seen under CoP -- the Germans' 3A though was a good example of what I'm talking about, though.

Really? I think just the opposite. We've seen skaters from well in the back of the pack after the short claw their way back to the podium. Gracie Gold came back from... I think it was 7th or 8th... and placed second at US Nats, and I think there's a case to be made that she could have won.

In the days of 6.0 the ordinal system didn't allow that. A skater can be outside the last flight of free skates and still have a shot. Often they're only 3 points or so from the podium. I think it makes the free skate more exciting, because you never know when someone will skate lights out and have that score hold up.
 

Riemann

Rinkside
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Dec 3, 2012
I personally don't see the point in imagining who would have won what if the new system existed at that time. The programs would have been completely different and the skaters would have received different training. One can think about how certain skaters might have done in general given their areas of strength, but even there, I question how far you can go.

Edit: This probably came off sounding more negative than it should have. Sorry.
 

pohatta

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 15, 2005
I wonder what Midori's 7 jump pass LP layout would have been like. AFAIK she never did an 8 triple LP because there was no point, she already was the best in technical marks. I think in her top form she could have tried 3Z-3T, 3A, 2A-3T, 3Z, 3F, 3L, 3S-2T-2L.
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
Tara would have wiped the floor with Michelle. She did only 6 jumping passes; under IJS she'd have added another 2Axel. And in the SP she could easily have thrown in 3Loop-3Loop and 3Flip, putting her securely ahead of Michelle. I don't know why she even bothered to do 3Flutz-2Toe when she had 3Loop-3Loop; did anyone in 1998 really think the latter should be valued less?

Under IJS, she wouldn't have gotten full 3-3 credit for the 3-seq-3, she would have gotten edge calls on her lutzes, and scored correctly, would not have gotten GOEs as good as Kwan on her jumps, spins or footwork. Tara's 2-axel was a particularly tiny jump with an odd take-off and would not have gotten good GOEs. I only realized recently the effect that postive GOEs can have on a score. It's major. The 3L-3L has practically been made extinct by COP because of scrutiny of under-rotations. Even assuming Tara could pull it off in the short, Michelle's Rach short program is considered one of the best in the history of the sport and would have given Michelle a nice carryover into the long, especially if she did the flip instead of the toe. I think Michelle would have won.
 

CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Under IJS, she wouldn't have gotten full 3-3 credit for the 3-seq-3, she would have gotten edge calls on her lutzes, and scored correctly, would not have gotten GOEs as good as Kwan on her jumps, spins or footwork. Tara's 2-axel was a particularly tiny jump with an odd take-off and would not have gotten good GOEs. I only realized recently the effect that postive GOEs can have on a score. It's major. The 3L-3L has practically been made extinct by COP because of scrutiny of under-rotations. Even assuming Tara could pull it off in the short, Michelle's Rach short program is considered one of the best in the history of the sport and would have given Michelle a nice carryover into the long, especially if she did the flip instead of the toe. I think Michelle would have won.

Why wouldn't she get full credit? Have 1/2-loop combos been changed to be judged as jump sequences again? The last I remember, 3Toe-1/2Loop-3Sal would be counted as a 3T-1Lo-3S. Kwan would be getting edge calls on her flutz as well. Lipinski had tiny jumps but the important part is that they were rotated with amazing snap, even her 3Loop-3Loop was nearly always rotated. Michelle had slightly better-looking jumps but she is no Yu-na Kim. It would not be a straight +3 vs. 0 GOE situation. And the program's quality of choreography has much less impact on the PCS than it did on the presentation score under 6.0 so Tara's PCS would not be far behind unless you truly think her program was hideous and her skating skills are 2 points behind Michelle.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I personally don't see the point in imagining who would have won what if the new system existed at that time. The programs would have been completely different and the skaters would have received different training. One can think about how certain skaters might have done in general given their areas of strength, but even there, I question how far you can go.

Edit: This probably came off sounding more negative than it should have. Sorry.

I know what you mean about the training and the different layouts. If you look at the coaches and the choreographers, Frank Carroll, Lori Nichol, and John Nicks (and others) have been successful in both eras, and they would have made good and sure that their skaters were prepared. But assuming those changes and continuing this speculation nevertheless, for argument's sake:

I don't know what to say about Tara vs. Michelle in 1998. Tara's jumps were small and low, but they were rotated, and no one has complained of her skating skills. Michelle, on the other hand, had such artistry and also exceptional stroking and attention to detail that put her at both a high technical level and a high expressive one. Maybe Tara would still have won at Nagano, but I still would have preferred watching Michelle. Tara's skating did nothing for me, though I admire her drive and focus. And maybe Michelle would have won!

Sarah had her shortcomings. I think she would have been further back. It would have been between Michelle and Irina, I think.

As for Michelle vs. Sasha, remember that Sasha's blade-to-ice skills weren't first-rate, so she would not have outdone Michelle in that area. In flexibility she certainly would have beaten just about everyone, and more important for me, she would have made it look good. Who cares if a girl can bend like a pretzel if it doesn't have any artistic impact? Sasha's moves have meaning and momentum.

Interesting: no one's mentioned Daisuke in this conversation. What are everyone's opinions?
 

ivy

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 6, 2005
Sasha competed under both systems, but she was the first I thought of as benefiting from CoP as it exists today. While not the best skating skills, her bag of tricks would serve her well today and some of those pesky falls would have maybe mattered less.

It is interesting to think about how some skaters might have been trained differently if they had been brought up in the CoP era. Maybe a little more attention to correct edges and full rotations?

Dai would have done well under 6.0. He would have gotten 6.0s for AI for Blues for Klook. Kozuko maybe better then too?
 

Puchi

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 26, 2010
If the IJS had been used in the past, it would have been harshly criticized for the same reasons it's criticized right now: results that the audience could not understand.
Years of controversial results would have led to a huge scandal at the 2002 Olympics, even though, acording to IJS, the result was perfectly understandable.
The fire was started when S/P lost to B/S based on PCS. Canada was not happy.
Then came the ladies event: Michelle Kwan, one of the most hated skaters in the world after beating Butirskaya at 1999 worlds based, again, on PCS, comes to the 2002 Olympics as the favorite of the judges for her superior skating quality. She had narrowly won Worlds in 2000 and then convincingly won in 2001, but the fans could not forgive her for being the judges pet.
In the competition, Michelle underrotates a 3flip in the SP (not penalized) and falls in the LP and still wins gold over Sarah Hughes, who was 7th in the SP but had mesmerized the audience with her brilliant LP that put her in 4th place overall, just behind a flawed Cohen, a messy Slutskaya, and an uninspired Michelle with a fall.
This was too much.
The audience surprisingly starts booing the results.
Scott Hamilton has a stroke in the booth.
Sandra Bezic swears she'll never attend a skating event ever again.
Sonia Bianchetti says something has to be done to save the sport.
The Russian and Canadian media go crazy.
The uproar escalates to the point the ISU has to come up with a new scoring system to placate the imminent disaster.

"Here's your new scoring system that will solve all the problems" said Cinquanta

"It's called the 6.0" :biggrin:
 
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