If the IJS had been used in the past, what would be different? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

If the IJS had been used in the past, what would be different?

FSGMT

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
If the IJS had been used in the past, it would have been harshly criticized for the same reasons it's criticized right now: results that the audience could not understand.
Years of controversial results would have led to a huge scandal at the 2002 Olympics, even though, acording to IJS, the result was perfectly understandable.
The fire was started when S/P lost to B/S based on PCS. Canada was not happy.
Then came the ladies event: Michelle Kwan, one of the most hated skaters in the world after beating Butirskaya at 1999 worlds based, again, on PCS, comes to the 2002 Olympics as the favorite of the judges for her superior skating quality. She had narrowly won Worlds in 2000 and then convincingly won in 2001, but the fans could not forgive her for being the judges pet.
In the competition, Michelle underrotates a 3flip in the SP (not penalized) and falls in the LP and still wins gold over Sarah Hughes, who was 7th in the SP but had mesmerized the audience with her brilliant LP that put her in 4th place overall, just behind a flawed Cohen, a messy Slutskaya, and an uninspired Michelle with a fall.
This was too much.
The audience surprisingly starts booing the results.
Scott Hamilton has a stroke in the booth.
Sandra Bezic swears she'll never attend a skating event ever again.
Sonia Bianchetti says something has to be done to save the sport.
The Russian and Canadian media go crazy.
The uproar escalates to the point the ISU has to come up with a new scoring system to placate the imminent disaster.

"Here's your new scoring system that will solve all the problems" said Cinquanta

"It's called the 6.0" :biggrin:
:rofl::points:
 

vera01

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
If the IJS had been used in the past, it would have been harshly criticized for the same reasons it's criticized right now: results that the audience could not understand.
Years of controversial results would have led to a huge scandal at the 2002 Olympics, even though, acording to IJS, the result was perfectly understandable.
The fire was started when S/P lost to B/S based on PCS. Canada was not happy.
Then came the ladies event: Michelle Kwan, one of the most hated skaters in the world after beating Butirskaya at 1999 worlds based, again, on PCS, comes to the 2002 Olympics as the favorite of the judges for her superior skating quality. She had narrowly won Worlds in 2000 and then convincingly won in 2001, but the fans could not forgive her for being the judges pet.
In the competition, Michelle underrotates a 3flip in the SP (not penalized) and falls in the LP and still wins gold over Sarah Hughes, who was 7th in the SP but had mesmerized the audience with her brilliant LP that put her in 4th place overall, just behind a flawed Cohen, a messy Slutskaya, and an uninspired Michelle with a fall.
This was too much.
The audience surprisingly starts booing the results.
Scott Hamilton has a stroke in the booth.
Sandra Bezic swears she'll never attend a skating event ever again.
Sonia Bianchetti says something has to be done to save the sport.
The Russian and Canadian media go crazy.
The uproar escalates to the point the ISU has to come up with a new scoring system to placate the imminent disaster.

"Here's your new scoring system that will solve all the problems" said Cinquanta

"It's called the 6.0" :biggrin:

:rofl::rofl:
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Country
United-States
I don't really have a problem with CoP, only with the way it is implemented.

Artistic Gymnastics made a similar shift to a CoP-like scoring system about the same time as Figure Skating did, discarding the old 10.0 system. It doesn't seem to have hurt that sport very much. I've noticed that the commentators seem knowledgeable about the scoring, and they do a good job of explaining where gymnasts are gaining or losing points. A gymnast who is extremely good in one aspect of the sport can overcome a portion where they are less expert. I've also noticed that gymnastics judges appear to be very picky, and they apply the pickiness across the board, from the favorites to unknowns.

We sometimes look down our noses at the general public, the casual fan of figure skating, for not understanding the system. That's unfair, since we don't even understand it all the time. I think it is important that we have a system that does take into account the casual fan, or we have to reconcile ourselves that our sport will be a small, elite little club of those "in the know" and to heck with everyone else.

That's OK... but we can't turn around and gripe about the lack of popularity, the absence of televised competition, and the need for more money in the sport to support struggling skaters and broaden our global appeal.

The masses will not support a sport wherein they cannot understand the outcome.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
This is really hard to say because I think if the skaters knew the judging system and paramters they would tailor make their routines ie. go for cleaner performances with less difficulty perhaps, hold that spin longer, add another positoin or whatever. I do think Witt would suffer under COP, Surya especially would suffer, I think Tara would not do as well under Cop as people think as her skating skills were kind of juniorish or at least lacking amplitude and power, her jumps ere kind of puny not to mention edge and ur's. They didn't cover the ice like even Yuna's, Mao's, Joannie's et al. COP might have benefitted Brian Orser - I thought he was a jumper but he was quite musical and styulistically very good and detailed. That is one skater I feel sorry for. I think he desrved to beat Scott or Brian at least one of them or he deserved a OGM of his own. Life is about timing too and the then rules or judging parameters. But with COP his skating skills may have rewarded him enough and obviously no school figures or extremely reduced school figures and Hamilton would have been second. It was sad Hamilton had a great personality but his final two freeskates - olympics and world's were underwhelming an dlooked like someone who was struggling to hold on to the gold. He is lucky he has ag reat personality because he really looked like someone who built up a lead and the new kid was knockikng on the door and he was just barely clinging on but clearly with the schuba of the 80's - I am sure deep down Scotty feels a bit bad because he was not even in the running wihen it came to the short or long.
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
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Joined
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Country
United-States
I wonder who will be the Trixie Schuba of the 21st century? Who will be the skater that is awarded Olympic victory on the basis of a spectator-unfriendly scoring system, and yet is not accepted as a true champion by the wider public?

Oddly enough, I mean no disrespect to Trixie Schuba, who excelled in the aspect of her sport that was rewarded at the time. She won her OGM fair and square, but it didn't sit well, and it led to the introduction of the Short Program.

And, FWIW, I still think that ending the school figure requirement has not been a positive thing for the technical side of our sport.
 

FSGMT

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
I wonder who will be the Trixie Schuba of the 21st century? Who will be the skater that is awarded Olympic victory on the basis of a spectator-unfriendly scoring system, and yet is not accepted as a true champion by the wider public?

Oddly enough, I mean no disrespect to Trixie Schuba, who excelled in the aspect of her sport that was rewarded at the time. She won her OGM fair and square, but it didn't sit well, and it led to the introduction of the Short Program.

And, FWIW, I still think that ending the school figure requirement has not been a positive thing for the technical side of our sport.
Someone like Patrick Chan, who mastered exactly what this system requires...
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
^ That's a great question. Audiences loved 'em some Janet Lynn. But Trixie Schuba was the best ever at school figures. Tall and athletic, she was steady as a rock and her patterns were huge and astonishing in their precision. I think she is, and will be, remembered fondly.

Here she is at the Sopporo Olympics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTDLjhTUMbA

By the way, why isn't this great television sports? To me, it has the same dramatic tension as a golfer lining up a crucial putt.
 

blue_idealist

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
I wonder who will be the Trixie Schuba of the 21st century? Who will be the skater that is awarded Olympic victory on the basis of a spectator-unfriendly scoring system, and yet is not accepted as a true champion by the wider public?

Some people already think of Evan Lysacek as this, although I wouldn't necessarily say the "wider public."
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Really? I think just the opposite. We've seen skaters from well in the back of the pack after the short claw their way back to the podium. Gracie Gold came back from... I think it was 7th or 8th... and placed second at US Nats, and I think there's a case to be made that she could have won.

In the days of 6.0 the ordinal system didn't allow that. A skater can be outside the last flight of free skates and still have a shot. Often they're only 3 points or so from the podium. I think it makes the free skate more exciting, because you never know when someone will skate lights out and have that score hold up.

I should clarify, by comeback skates I mean when skaters made an error, but then fought back later in the program by trying another 3Z or 3-3, when unplanned (or 3A in Ito's case). With the way programs are laid out now, easier jumps are usually saved for the end.

In terms of comebacks in the standings, that's one of the things I love most about IJS. I think it also makes it way more apparent when a judge is propping up a skater, which is good for establishing greater transparency, as hard as that may be. I thought it was always a bit ridiculous if you had to be in the top 3 after the SP to guarantee a win if you won the FS.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I agree that the possibility of comebacks in the standings is a benefit of CoP. I too remember how frustrating it was to see a dynamite free skate in 6.0 from someone who had to depend on some impossible combination of wins and flubs from someone else in order to benefit from that skate.

But the system has caused skating to become so mechanistic as skaters try to boost points by adding extraneous elements. Somehow that doesn't bother me as much in gymnastics, where they're not trying for an artistic result as well as an athletic one.

An example of how mechanical demands can make for less interesting skating is the 1994 finals of ice dance. I know they were 6.0, but bear with me. That was the year ice dance rules demanded that teams use only music that could be danced to. It was the year Torvill and Dean came back to try for another gold. This innovative team, that could make audiences stop breathing for four minutes and more, were restricted to doing a routine to Fred and Ginger dance music. I love Irving Berlin, but as a basis for artistry, it was far below what Torvill and Dean could have explored given the chance. So the judges decided that Dean did an illegal lift and penalized them, and they came in third to--ugh--a cheery rendition of "Rock Around the Clock" performed at frenzied speed. A piece of music that consists of three notes played over and over again gave the winning team the advantage. The rules were so constricting that perhaps the greatest ice dancers ever couldn't win a competition.

The music requirement for that year was made not to benefit the skaters but to benefit the judges. It was made so that judges would be able to compare different ice dancers more accurately. That's one of the reasons the CoP was worked out: to be able to quantify elements of a program accurately in order to compare skaters' performances. Is it a necessary evil, or just an evil? Maybe it just needs recalibration, but I don't think it's so great for skating as it stands right now.

For this reason, I am getting more and more uncomfortable with using it to measure the great skaters of the past. If Michelle or Dorothy or G & G would have done less well under CoP, does that mean they are not good skaters? Heaven forbid!
 

Poodlepal

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
For this reason, I am getting more and more uncomfortable with using it to measure the great skaters of the past. If Michelle or Dorothy or G & G would have done less well under CoP, does that mean they are not good skaters? Heaven forbid![/QUOTE]

Of course not, they were still great skaters. That's the problem with the "new" judging system. It seems to reward--I don't know--conformity, perhaps--over performance and showmanship and innovation. Under 6.0 a skater who maybe flutzed or underrotated or did easier footwork could still win if they skated clean and were creative and entertaining. Was this fair? I don't know. Perhaps there were skaters who sat there fuming about how so-and-so won unfairly even though he/she/they only did their footwork on two feet or took off on the wrong edge. But most of the audience was happy to see the cleanest and most entertaining people usually win.

I think it's sad that we don't see too many "characters" like Bowman the Showman or Philiippe Candeloro anymore. It's like everyone does the same program and the one with the best edges wins.
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
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Olympia, thanks for reminding me of the 1994 Olympics. The whole ice dance situation was quite a puzzle.

I remember some criticism of an early T/D program that season because of the whole "danceability" issue, so they chucked it and went with something VERY ballroom for the Olympics. I didn't realize they had been penalized for a lift... I just thought something incomprehensible had happened in ice dance again... I've already shared my opinion on 6.0 ice dance judging and placements.

I don't recall which program T/D did at EC that year... but it was good enough to win, although I'm not sure they won the FS there.

To be honest, the program I enjoyed the most was U/Z. I was dumbfounded at the time about the judges' choice for the gold, and I still am.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I think the big impact that Torvill and Dean made that year was with their compulsory dance (I can't remember if it was called that in 1994), which was I believe a rhumba. As I recall, it was pretty incendiary. It did place them first after that phase even in the Olympics. At the end, when they had won the bronze, some interviewer asked their opinion of yet another change in the rules, and Jayne Torville said in that calm, crisp British way that they didn't care what the new rule change was because they would not be taking part in future competition.

Like you, I preferred Usova/Zhulin of the remaining two couples in the Top Three, and I was shocked that they had not won in T/D's stead. They were such a wonderful, graceful pair, with great choreography and splendid unison. And, for my mind, better taste than G/P in terms of music and moves. But there; they'll never make me a judge, so I'll just enjoy the programs I watch and not worry about the outcome.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Of course not, they were still great skaters. That's the problem with the "new" judging system. It seems to reward--I don't know--conformity, perhaps--over performance and showmanship and innovation. Under 6.0 a skater who maybe flutzed or underrotated or did easier footwork could still win if they skated clean and were creative and entertaining. Was this fair? I don't know. Perhaps there were skaters who sat there fuming about how so-and-so won unfairly even though he/she/they only did their footwork on two feet or took off on the wrong edge. But most of the audience was happy to see the cleanest and most entertaining people usually win.

I think it's sad that we don't see too many "characters" like Bowman the Showman or Philiippe Candeloro anymore. It's like everyone does the same program and the one with the best edges wins.

That's because the judges don't use CoP correctly.
Michelle should get 10 on P/E for some of her programs.
B/L should get 3 on their P/E for performing a little worse than club level pairs.
Julia L. should get 1 on her CH for being tacky and ugly.

If the judges really decouple components in the PCS, great skaters in the past or great performances in the past would still do well in the new system.

I think CoP is the right tool to reward interesting choreography, skills, correct technique. Patrick Chan is a prime example of fundamental misunderstanding in CoP judging. His SS score influenced his 4 other component scores. If you score him correctly on the other 4 components, you would get the correct placement.
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
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And, for my mind, (U/Z had) better taste than G/P in terms of music and moves. But there; they'll never make me a judge, so I'll just enjoy the programs I watch and not worry about the outcome.

I never warmed to G/P, although to be honest, I wasn't that great a fan of Ice Dance back in the day. Still, I do recall some of the truly great performances and occasionally youtube some of them. G/P are not among them.

I've never rewatched their 1994 OGM performance, and I've never watched their 1998 one at all. By that time, I was so disillusioned with dance that I just wasn't interested enough to watch it very much, and certainly wouldn't have inconvenienced myself enough to tune into watch G/P. I don't know if they're still skating, or even if they're still alive.

They split after 1998, didn't they? I recall some scandal or other...
 

sk8ingcoach

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 25, 2012
Poor Midori Ito. She would have won the 1988 olympics under IJS. Even though her components are clearly not great, she would have had a 70+ technical score. She would hve won 1990 worlds as well. Also maybe the 1992 olympics.
 

blue_idealist

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
I never warmed to G/P, although to be honest, I wasn't that great a fan of Ice Dance back in the day. Still, I do recall some of the truly great performances and occasionally youtube some of them. G/P are not among them.

I've never rewatched their 1994 OGM performance, and I've never watched their 1998 one at all. By that time, I was so disillusioned with dance that I just wasn't interested enough to watch it very much, and certainly wouldn't have inconvenienced myself enough to tune into watch G/P. I don't know if they're still skating, or even if they're still alive.

They split after 1998, didn't they? I recall some scandal or other...

Yeah, she started skating with Alexander Zhulin, and he started skating with Maya Usova (as pros).. kind of a partner swap thing. lol.
 
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