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Thread: Double standard? (Men's FS vs. Women's SP/Pairs FS)

  1. #16
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    Since I've already held forth on this topic in other threads, I'll try to limit myself a bit this time. Plus, as someone mentioned, this particular equine has now been beaten so thoroughly it could probably now go into IKEA meatballs.

    While individual circumstances can be debated, and I'm not saying that Caro's errors were equivalent to Patrick's, I do agree with the OP on principle:

    1) there ought to be a conceptual recognition that it is impossible to have a clear fall that does not impact the aesthetic qualities of the program, and therefore it should be reflected in the PCS in some fashion.

    2) it can also be recognized, however, that every succeeding fall/disruption has greater impact, and the penalties might increase in non-linear fashionm, starting with a fairly moderate level for the first. That way, the first one doesn't necessarily mean you're out of the running, but the impact is recognized, and you've gotten your first yellow card on the increasing scale of penalties.

    Further distinctions can be made on the basis of how the skater copes subsequent to the fall/disruption. Thus, skaters that do their best to get back on track as quickly and completely as possible wll minimize the negative impact, while those who do not will suffer further in their scores. Nevertheless, the fact that there is a base penalty (see above) recognizes the conceptual truth that there is no such thing as a fall that does not disrupt the program.

    3) this system ought to have well-defined paramaters, to minimize the arbitrariness of judgment (just look at the arguments here on this forum).

    I will use Caro's program-ending fall in the LP to illustrate some thoughts. Now, I recognize that this is a strong and quality program. That is not the issue. But as it applies to the thread topic, consider this: why, do you suppose, did Lori/Caro choose to put that jump where they did? As most of us should be able to see, it was not merely to gain a second-half jump bonus. In my view, it's clear that the jump placement was deliberately designed to create an emphatic, thrilling emotional punctuation, to bring the house down, as it were. In short, they were planning for a PCS boost from this technical element. If Caro had hit that jump, I do not doubt that it would have had the desired effect.

    But having recognized this, what should, logically, be the effect of a fall on that aesthetically critical jump? Yes, I would argue that it should negatively impact PCS, just as its clean execution would have positively affected it. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

    Again, do I believe this was on the same level or magnitude has Patrick's failings in the LP? Of course not. But let's be intellectually honest about it and agree that it is a difference of degree, not kind.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by PftJump View Post
    Hey... We all know linkage between Score (mainly PCS, somewhat TES) and Nationality.
    Need discussion? I don't think so.
    In this case, I don't think it worked out that way. If Skate Canada were pulling strings they could have done better for Kaetlyn Osmond, who gave two fine performances but achieved only eighth place. They could have done something for Duhamel and Radford, who deserved silver but only got bronze. And they could have lobbied harder for Virtue and Moir, who lost to Davis a White. (At last year;s worlds Virtue and Moir did catch a break in the judging, but that was in France.)

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    In this case, I don't think it worked out that way. If Skate Canada were pulling strings they could have done better for Kaetlyn Osmond, who gave two fine performances but achieved only eighth place.
    Kaetlyn fell TWO times in the LP. And still got higher pcs than Suzuki.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    Kaetlyn fell TWO times in the LP. And still got higher pcs than Suzuki.
    I'd have to agree with Mathman on this one. Akiko's lower PCS was because of (a) her position in the penultimate group, unlike Kaetlyn, who skated in the final group of ladies, and (b) Akiko was far from her usual sparkling self during that unfortunate performance.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    In this case, I don't think it worked out that way. If Skate Canada were pulling strings they could have done better for Kaetlyn Osmond, who gave two fine performances but achieved only eighth place. They could have done something for Duhamel and Radford, who deserved silver but only got bronze. And they could have lobbied harder for Virtue and Moir, who lost to Davis a White. (At last year;s worlds Virtue and Moir did catch a break in the judging, but that was in France.)
    First Senior year,
    She got PCS score 29.XX in Short, and 60.XX in Free...
    Even Zijun Li's Clean program got 58.XX.

    Want more ?

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robeye View Post
    I will use Caro's program-ending fall in the LP to illustrate some thoughts. Now, I recognize that this is a strong and quality program. That is not the issue. But as it applies to the thread topic, consider this: why, do you suppose, did Lori/Caro choose to put that jump where they did? As most of us should be able to see, it was not merely to gain a second-half jump bonus. In my view, it's clear that the jump placement was deliberately designed to create an emphatic, thrilling emotional punctuation, to bring the house down, as it were. In short, they were planning for a PCS boost from this technical element. If Caro had hit that jump, I do not doubt that it would have had the desired effect.

    But having recognized this, what should, logically, be the effect of a fall on that aesthetically critical jump? Yes, I would argue that it should negatively impact PCS, just as its clean execution would have positively affected it. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.
    I have to disagree. Carolina's splat on the 3Sal went perfectly with the music. Though I think she should have improvised and just played dead instead of clambering back to her feet only to finish behind the music.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I'm still coming to grips with why people are up in arms over Chan losing the FS to Ten due to major errors, when Kostner was placed ahead in the SP over clean skates by Murakami and Osmond and a clean Li in the FS, in spite of falls/pop, and the Germans placed ahead in the FS over 2 virtually-clean Canadian teams in spite of multiple major errors.

    Clearly Chan is a better skater with a better program than Ten and got good (but not his best) PCS which rightfully wasn't not enough to win the FS (but enough overall). Clearly Kostner is a better skater than Murakami/Osmond/Li and got higher PCS which was still enough to lead in the SP and beat Li in the FS. Clearly the Germans are a better pair than D/R and MT/M, and their PCS allowed them to overtake the Canadians overall.

    So (general Chan hating aside) why are people more outraged at a PCS-superior unclean skater rightfully losing the FS to a clean skater, than a PCS-superior Kostner/Germans with errors winning the SP/FS over clean skaters? Seems like a similar scenario, so why the double standard?
    Bravo. I don't care if you are Canadian or not this was a well thought out position. I concur. I wish Chan and all the men skated better but they didn't. chan overall was the best. years ago there was skater Jennifer Robinson and she skated a clean 7 triple program but she was way down in like 14th. And it was because she didn't have the quality (she was painfully slow and double footed her lutz more times than Susan Lucci has lost the Emmy.

    This has been my point all along. Besides the posters here are supposed to be more educated about skating ; sometimes I wonder though. And the more whining the more kiling we do.

  8. #23
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    Sorry to continue = quality is important as quantity. If we say Chan didn't deserve Gold then years ago Kostner didn't deserve many of her medals. so many times itis the best of the worst who wins or the most competitive but not the best skater. Think. Should we say 2010 Evan should get silver at the Olympics he neither is the best technicanor sytlisht/pcs. He isn't even a personality like Witt. blah skating got gold. it was the best of the worst.likewise what happened in London 2013.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarneAsada View Post
    I have to disagree. Carolina's splat on the 3Sal went perfectly with the music. Though I think she should have improvised and just played dead instead of clambering back to her feet only to finish behind the music.
    While it would have been amusing to see Carolina try a cheeky Cohenesque pose on ice, it would have required an unbelievable self-possession (not to mention a lack of pain-receptors on her backside, sort of like the character "Kick ***" in the movie and comics of the same name ), because that splat looked like it hurt, and it's hard to recover immediately from a physical shock like that.

    Nevertheless, the fact that fall was impeccably on beat is not quite the same thing as saying that the artistic effect of the fall was appropriate. I don't think that the impression that Team Caro was aiming for was "pratfall", like some kind of comedy send-up of the slow, sensual running toward each other on the beach, only to stumble and knock heads at the final moment. That was the risk that the jump entailed, and I am quite certain that both Carolina and Lori were aware of that.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Duhamel and Radford should have won the silver medal. Savchenko and Solkowy's performance, like Bolero itself -- I though it would never end.
    Math, you and I may be the only people in the world that find Ravel's Bolero more dreary than torrid. Until that chord change way, way, waaaay at the end, it has almost no interest for me as a melody. I put up with it when Torvill and Dean transformed its lead into gold, but even Michelle couldn't give it zing for me. If I want really incendiary music, I look to the Liebestod from Tristan and Isolde, which has an orchestral version, or the balcony scene from Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet. There's plenty other Ravel that I prefer to Bolero.

    I just hope Ingo Steuer finds something more inspiring for S/S for next year.

    I can't weigh in on the men's final, because I still haven't seen anyone. I fear I lost heart when Daisuke had such a bad skate and just didn't hunt around for everyone's YouTube videos.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    Sorry to continue = quality is important as quantity. If we say Chan didn't deserve Gold then years ago Kostner didn't deserve many of her medals. so many times itis the best of the worst who wins or the most competitive but not the best skater. Think. Should we say 2010 Evan should get silver at the Olympics he neither is the best technicanor sytlisht/pcs. He isn't even a personality like Witt. blah skating got gold. it was the best of the worst.likewise what happened in London 2013.
    Wrong. Sure, there is difference in quality betwen Chan and Ten's skating, but not enough to make up for the fact that Ten did two very enjoyable, well executed, programs, while Chan did one good Short and then bombed the long. Saying the best of the worst implies that no one skated well. Wrong. Ten skated extremely well, stayed on his feet, and performed the hell out of two programs. Chan wasn't even the best of the worst, anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robeye View Post
    While it would have been amusing to see Carolina try a cheeky Cohenesque pose on ice, it would have required an unbelievable self-possession (not to mention a lack of pain-receptors on her backside, sort of like the character "Kick ***" in the movie and comics of the same name ), because that splat looked like it hurt, and it's hard to recover immediately from a physical shock like that.

    Nevertheless, the fact that fall was impeccably on beat is not quite the same thing as saying that the artistic effect of the fall was appropriate. I don't think that the impression that Team Caro was aiming for was "pratfall", like some kind of comedy send-up of the slow, sensual running toward each other on the beach, only to stumble and knock heads at the final moment. That was the risk that the jump entailed, and I am quite certain that both Carolina and Lori were aware of that.
    Unintended artistic impression? Sure. But is was one hell of an unintended artistic impression. Seriously, she went boom RIGHT on beat. Had she played dead. I would have given her all the 6.0s in the world for amazing improvisation.

  12. #27
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    Chan didn't deserve to get more than 5 points in P/E component point.
    Just well-estimated P/E Point can correct this mess.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by zschultz1986 View Post
    Unintended artistic impression? Sure. But is was one hell of an unintended artistic impression. Seriously, she went boom RIGHT on beat. Had she played dead. I would have given her all the 6.0s in the world for amazing improvisation.
    OK, I'll agree that it was one hell of an unintended artistic impression and leave it at that.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    Math, you and I may be the only people in the world that find Ravel's Bolero more dreary than torrid. Until that chord change way, way, waaaay at the end, it has almost no interest for me as a melody. I put up with it when Torvill and Dean transformed its lead into gold, but even Michelle couldn't give it zing for me.
    Oh, I also find Bolero tedious. I think of kids on a long car trip asking 'Are we there yet?'. Only Torvill and Dean's program made it tolerable to listen to.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    Math, you and I may be the only people in the world that find Ravel's Bolero more dreary than torrid.
    No, you're not the only ones. I have always Loathed. This. Music. Once T&D performed it (best ever done, IMO), it should have been retired as a skating piece forever.

    As to the subject of the thread, I certainly don't have a double-standard. I thought Chan stunk up the joint and didn't deserve the gold. I thought Carolina didn't deserve the silver...maybe shouldn't have even been on the podium. And I definitely wouldn't have put a flawed and uninspiring S/S in for silver and barely for bronze over MTM. All beneficiaries of overscoring and particularly on PCS. Lots of tech panels and judges to share in the sinning in this Worlds.

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