Double standard? (Men's FS vs. Women's SP/Pairs FS)
- Thread starter CanadianSkaterGuy
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- Jan 25, 2013
Davis and White were stunning in their SD, and even without V/M's twizzle error I would have placed them ahead. The FD was closer, but I still would have had D/W again.
Yu Na Kim definitely saved the competition -- I couldn't stomach another World Champion with two flawed programs, each with at least one major mistake. But the only thing that justified Kostner's silver is her nailing that awesome 3F-3T -- with the popped loop and 3S<<(fall) it was like she left out two jumps, and it was still enough to place 2nd. It's scary though that she could have fallen again and still likely placed ahead of Murakami.
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- Jun 21, 2003
PS.
I don't know about that. Kostner has been thoroughly roasted over the years for high placements despite weak technical content and mistakes.
Not as much as Chan, but that's probably due to gallantry. One doesn't like to wade in with both fists when beating up on ladies.
I don't know about that. Kostner has been thoroughly roasted over the years for high placements despite weak technical content and mistakes.
Not as much as Chan, but that's probably due to gallantry. One doesn't like to wade in with both fists when beating up on ladies.
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- Mar 18, 2013
Alot of"IF"s. Stop living in the hypothetical. Kim skated, she won. V/T beat everyone. The reality is neither Kostner nor Chan not S/S should have won. However, one of them DID win, because the system is a stupid. I've complained about Kostner's gifts many, many times. However, she's never won a world championship while falling twice and skating a complete mess of a long. Also, I don't argue she was held up in the PCS in the short. However, she also never has been as blatantly arrogant as Chan... saying that Denis didn't walk through the door he gave him, saying that he thinks he deserves the scores he got. Such disgusting arrogance, and all of it is propped up by the judges. Chan deserves all of the hatred he gets, and it colors his skating, for many, including me. I am going to be SO happy if he ends up off the podium at Sochi. He's definitely NOT going to win with that kind of free skate at Olys (I say this, hoping that it is true.)
If Ten hadn't skated, and Chan won... I would be upset, if only, because I dislike Chan in the extreme. However, I would have though that he won a messy event. Also, the fact is Denis Ten did skate circles around Chan at these Worlds, and lost, unfairly, to a sloppy, sub-par Chan.
I think if there was no Yuna and V/T, there would be plenty of outrage and nasty comments towards current silver medalists. Some posters on this board were vicious towards Asada and Kostner in the past when they won with mistakes, so, no, it's not just about Chan.
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- Jan 25, 2013
Actually Kostner skated a wonderful long last year. Yeah, she was arguably propped up in the short, but she clearly outclassed everyone last year -- the only issue is that it was an easy program (for what she's capable of, or for what one would consider World Champion calibre). But it wasn't messy like this year's skates that earned her a silver.
I also agree that Chan is more outspoken and could be more humble, but he was facing a lot of flack for something that was out of his hands. It must be hard being asked after you won "Did you deserve to win? Did the judges get it wrong?" when you're already disappointed in yourself and likely yourself questioning the legitimacy of your win. That comment about Ten not walking through the door was an arrogant statement though, seeing as how Denis really had the skate of his life and save for the flip tried his hardest to outskate Chan -- and he did by winning the FS, he just couldn't make up the SP gap.
I hate the general statement "left the door open and so-and-so walks right through it"... it almost debases a legitimate victory -- like "he only won because I made errors". And it's a stupid idiom because somebody could skate earlier or later than somebody else without really paying heed to what the other does. If Ten skated before Patrick then you can't say Patrick left the door open for him.
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In the sentence you are quoting from, I'm not speaking about this competition, but about the totality of their competitions over the 2-3 years, since they, V/M, and the regular cast of dancers have been going against each other. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
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Haha, sorry, I was just being silly! I'm a fan of both D/W and V/M, but I always feel as though I'm holding my breath when Tessa and Scott are skating, but with Meryl and Charlie I'm never ever nervous because they never seem yo make mistakes. Sorry for the confusion, I should have clarified in my post.
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Obviously the judges disagree with you.
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- Jul 26, 2003
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There are quite a few Olympic medalists who had falls, including Evgeni Plushenko (silver over Tim Goebel despite a fall in the SP), and Sasha Cohen's two fall Olympic silver performance.
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True, but those who ended up falling also had those below them make errors, the only real exception being Goebel coming 3rd to Plushenko/Yagudin in spite of a clean, more technically demanding FS. I'm okay with a silver medalist having errors if others they're placed ahead of also had errors, but if others skated cleanly and with difficult content, and you happen to have a fall, then it's hard to justify why you deserve to be placed higher.
Plus in the case of Sasha, she admitted that the silver was a gift from the judges, and knew that she didn't earn the silver so much as be slightly better than Slutskaya. Thank goodness for Arakawa being there, because neither Sasha or Irina had champion-calibre performances.
Plus in the case of Sasha, she admitted that the silver was a gift from the judges, and knew that she didn't earn the silver so much as be slightly better than Slutskaya. Thank goodness for Arakawa being there, because neither Sasha or Irina had champion-calibre performances.
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- Mar 18, 2013
I know, they were really, very misguided at these Worlds, cause they weren't watching what was on the ice in front of them most the time, it seemed to me.
This whole "Clean Skate Saving A Competition" theory is a crapshoot.
Arakawa didn't save anything, that Olympics was the worst Olys for the Individual disciplines since 1994. Arakawa was clean, sure, but she was only good in comparison to the hot messes she had to follow. She wouldn't have even been the bronze medalist (or 4th) with that skate in 2002, 1998, or 2010 (Honestly, I'd put her 5th in 2010. Seriously, Mao was the one that could have saved the 2006 Olympics, but of course, she was like 2 milliseconds too young.) 2006 was simply abysmal. Buttle actually attempted a quad he knew he had almost no chance of landing, because it was worth more points. I mean, in what system is that ok (IJS)? Evan bombed the short, and came back in the long, Johnny Weir crapped the bed in the long after, what I think, was the best short program of the entire quad. The only one who was worth watching at that Olympics, in my opinion was the most underrated skater in that quad: Savoie. Sure, the lutz only had 1T on it, but that is REAL artistry. His PCS should have been MILES ahead of Evan and comparable with Stephane, Buttle, and Plushenko. His LP was masterful, special. Plushenko had never been my cup of tea (because he's almost more arrogant than Chan) but he landed everything.
Go back and look at the 2010 Olympic Ladies Final Flight. Now THAT is how an event goes off. Skater after Skater pushing each other with good performances. The short, too, was just top notch.
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- Feb 24, 2012
I respectfully disagree with you. The judging parameters created the situation where Carolina, Squared and Chan received enough marks to place higher than others who some of us non judges thought should have placed higher or won.
As for worst skated individual disciplines since 1994. I actually think an argument can be made that Tara Lipinski and her juniorish skating and sara hughes in rather ho h um skating are arguable not the most exciting winners or events. It's the system that creates these results; go ahead and change the system, yet again and you will cotninue to kill the sport. keep on whining folks and we might get heard and kill the sport further. What is saving the sport in some ways is that most of the world pays no attention to these boards or we would just further decimate the credibility of the sport. And really how redible is a sport that when you change the judging parameters you get totally different winners. Schuba to Janet Lynn; Manley could have won in several ways over Witt, Who wins also depends what glasses are you wearing 6.0 or Cop etc.
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Sasha's performance at the Olympics was her best ever in terms of artistry/PCS.
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Mao not making the 2006 Olympics was a bit of a travesty. All these people playing it safe, and you have a breath of fresh air attempting 3-3 and 3A. I mean, it worked out, since Japan won the gold anyways... but such bs that she wasn't there. I don't think Arakawa "saved" the Olympics in terms of technical ability (and it sucks that she's capable of so much more than she showed, but played it safe after her competitors bombed). She did, however, save the Olympics in terms of better skating coming out on top, after Baiul/Lipinski/Hughes-type skaters. Arguably Lipinski and Hughes deserved to win on the nights they won, but Arakawa actually delivered an artistically superior performance (although the 4 donut spins were ridiculous, lol), that was clean (a lot to be said on a night when many were faltering).
And yes, the 2010 competition was a perfect example of how top skaters elevate themselves at the right moment. I just hope we see something similar at Sochi.
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- Mar 18, 2013
No. Yu-Na would have won under any system. Yagudin under any system. Curry under any system. G/G under any system. Torvill & Dean under any system. Etc, etc. and so on. Also, we're not talking about the winner. We're talking about the field as a whole,
Yes, once I stopped worrying about her jumps (because I had resigned myself to the fact that there would be mistakes) I really could appreciate the performance. She didn't let the program go and I really did feel she was Juliet in that moment (which oddly enough, the falls helped with the artistic impression, which is odd to me, but they did).
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Still, I appreciated her performance. She stayed on her feet, she did some cool moves like an Ina Bauer and an unassisted I-spiral, she skated to emotionally satisfying music. Just what people want to see.
She bailed on her two planned triple-triples, but that is of interest only to skating insiders.
The reason that the ISU can score events like Worlds the way they do is because no one is watching. I don't think they will be able to give the Olympic gold medal to a skater with two falls in the LP in front of a billion people and the IOC. This also means that they will not want to give any skater an insurmountable lead in the short program.
Strangly enough, commentator Scott Hamilton said of Yagudin's skate that he just conceded the LP to Plushenko. Scott speculated that Goebel should have won, after Yagudin's lackluster Man in the Iron Mask.
Sergei Volkov won the figures portion and Toller Cranston the short progra (second in long). I think it is possible to imagine a scoring system in which the final podium would have come out differently. (Plus, I think at the time Curry's performance in the LP was not immediately acknowledged as the most masterful skating performance of all time, including everything that has happened since. I think this judgment formed over the years following.)
You mean 1988, right? In 1994 Mishkutenok and Dmitriev were better.
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- Jan 25, 2013
I agree with all except for T/D. They never had to do the footwork, twizzles, dance spins, or lifts like those that are required under CoP. They would however get excellent PCS. But pre-IJS ice dance is more of a performance, with a technical focus on edge quality and speed moreso than actual difficulty. You would wonder how the 90's would react if D/W or V/M went back in time and skated their current FDs.
Even G/G is questionable because the technical content they had was inferior to today's standards for winning at least. Again, their artistry is better than most, if not all, of today's pairs teams so their PCS would be high, but it's really difficult to compare pre- and post-IJS skaters. Of course Yagudin and Kim have quads and 3-3s and that hasn't changed too much.
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