I agree with CanadianSkaterGuy's post.
To me, Yu-na Kim saved the competition by laying down two "no doubt" programs. (Not that Davis and White were chopped liver...)
If Kostner went out there and doubled all of her jumps, I bet you would still get people defending a high placement due to the quality of her skating.
I agree, and people seem to be making this point that he was the champion. But IMO, if Kim or Volosozhar/Trankov hadn't competed (due to injury or something) and runners-up Kostner and the Germans were bumped up to 1st with their performances it would be just as outrageous. I also wonder what the reaction would have been if Ten hadn't skated, and Chan was 15 points lower in the FS and still won if people would still be outraged (though the answer is obvious).
As for Kostner checking off the points, I agree with those (and I'm sure V/M would get those checked off too)... but in the grand scheme of things, a fall in the SP or SD shouldn't put you in second place when others skate clean.
If Kostner went out there and doubled all of her jumps, I bet you would still get people defending a high placement due to the quality of her skating. Say she had reduced her 3-3 to a clean 3T-2T, and essentially had a jump layout of 3T-2T, 3L, and 2A - likely placing her second... people wouldn't bat an eyelid, because she skated clean with a beautiful program, and not even be like "2nd with those jumps, when others did 3-3, 3F, 2A?!"
I agree that Kostner is a wonderful skater, but it's a sport and she (and Chan/Germans/V-M, etc.) should not be propped up by PCS. Like, what's the point of any other skater even competing against Kostner (or V/M) if they have to put out a perfect skate with harder elements and hope she makes big errors in order to at least be only 1 or 2 points behind her?
It's a sport and people should be attempting difficulty and be penalized when they make major errors. A fall in an SP or SD should immediately put you out of the top 3 if others skate clean... I don't care if the ice turns gold wherever you touch it -- you committed a major error on 1 of 3 jumping passes (not to mention, in Kostner's case, an inferior jump layout to begin with). If Chan fell on his quad in the SP, and still pulled in 90 points behind a clean Denis Ten, I'm pretty sure nobody here would be like "Well, he nailed the other aspects of his program, and is a way better skater than the others, so it's deserved." Yu Na landed 3Z-3T, 3F, 2A and Kostner did 3-3 with a fall (gifted with -2's, and the tech specialist didn't recognize the UR), 3L, 2A and was just 3 points behind her, and ahead of Murakami/Osmond who did 3-3, 3F, 2A. If people want to treat this as a legitimate sport you can't be defending people who technically falter.
I get that people here will hate Chan just for the sake of hating Chan, but at least if you're going to criticize him, apply the same criticism to other skaters who also benefit from PCS advantages over the rest of the field.
I think if there was no Yuna and V/T, there would be plenty of outrage and nasty comments towards current silver medalists. Some posters on this board were vicious towards Asada and Kostner in the past when they won with mistakes, so, no, it's not just about Chan.I agree, and people seem to be making this point that he was the champion. But IMO, if Kim or Volosozhar/Trankov hadn't competed (due to injury or something) and runners-up Kostner and the Germans were bumped up to 1st with their performances it would be just as outrageous. I also wonder what the reaction would have been if Ten hadn't skated, and Chan was 15 points lower in the FS and still won if people would still be outraged (though the answer is obvious).
Alot of"IF"s. Stop living in the hypothetical. Kim skated, she won. V/T beat everyone. The reality is neither Kostner nor Chan not S/S should have won. However, one of them DID win, because the system is a stupid. I've complained about Kostner's gifts many, many times. However, she's never won a world championship while falling twice and skating a complete mess of a long. .
Davis and White make mistakes???
I agree that their quality of dance is greater. But in something like ice dance where falls are so rare, one ice dance fall is like committing 2 or 3 falls in singles.
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But in dance, there are other major mistakes besides outright butt-falls: twizzle stumbles, lifts that go nowhere, tangled-up spins, etc. All of these can (and should) meaningfully affect a team's score. In singles, there doesn't seem to be much of anything that's considered a "major" mistake anymore....at least not for Chan and Kostner.
In the sentence you are quoting from, I'm not speaking about this competition, but about the totality of their competitions over the 2-3 years, since they, V/M, and the regular cast of dancers have been going against each other. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
This conversation was not meant to defend Chan's scores. I totally agree that he was overscored (although Ten arguably was overscored in PCS too). The conversation was about why other skaters who have a PCS advantage over the field are forgiven for errors, but people seem to get only hung up on Chan. I'm saying that Kostner (particularly in the SP) and the Germans (particularly in the LP) were overscored on their PCS, in spite of major errors. I agree that it wasn't as disruptive in Kostner's case (although there's something to be said about the silver medalist having only the 4th and 6th best TES scores over the competition, and being gifted -2's for a fall at that)... but the errors were certainly disruptive in the case of the Germans (although it's like that 3A throw at the end negated how bad they were skating - compared to what they're capable of, that is). And yet the Germans still received better PCS than previous programs of theirs that were skated better and were better choreographed.
It's all part of a bigger question that skaters that are superior in PCS on the competition still get good results with errors. My point is that all "top" skaters, not just Chan, need to be made more accountable for major errors... Justifying Kostner's or the Germans' marks after errors by saying they have better SS, etc. is being hypocritical when you bash an erring Chan who has a similar PCS advantage over the field, even when the field does clean skates. It's absolute bs that PCS-inferior skaters need to skate with harder technical content and cleanly at that to even have a shot at besting a top skater with errors, but it's not like Chan is the only one to have benefited from that.
I still can't believe people defend Kostner's 2nd place in the SP after a blatant fall on one of the 3 jumping passes. I expected Kostner's PCS to make up for it, but not so much as to put her in 2nd. Disruptive or not, it would be like if V/M or D/W fell in their short dance, and still placed 2nd in the segment because their overall skating is superior to everyone else.
Wrong. Sure, there is difference in quality betwen Chan and Ten's skating, but not enough to make up for the fact that Ten did two very enjoyable, well executed, programs, while Chan did one good Short and then bombed the long. Saying the best of the worst implies that no one skated well. Wrong. Ten skated extremely well, stayed on his feet, and performed the hell out of two programs. Chan wasn't even the best of the worst, a
Unintended artistic impression? Sure. But is was one hell of an unintended artistic impression. Seriously, she went boom RIGHT on beat. Had she played dead. I would have given her all the 6.0s in the world for amazing improvisation.
Oh, well there you go! Not cool, judges. I'm Canadian and I would never defend V/M placing 2nd after that fall, no matter how much better skaters they are than the rest of the field, nor would I try to justify it by saying "oh, but they skated the rest of the program brilliantly and didn't let it be disruptive". Seriously, how can anyone take skating seriously when that happens? Under 6.0, a fall in the SP or OD would (and should) immediately put you out of podium position.
Obviously the judges disagree with you.
True, but those who ended up falling also had those below them make errors, the only real exception being Goebel coming 3rd to Plushenko/Yagudin in spite of a clean, more technically demanding FS. I'm okay with a silver medalist having errors if others they're placed ahead of also had errors, but if others skated cleanly and with difficult content, and you happen to have a fall, then it's hard to justify why you deserve to be placed higher.
Plus in the case of Sasha, she admitted that the silver was a gift from the judges, and knew that she didn't earn the silver so much as be slightly better than Slutskaya. Thank goodness for Arakawa being there, because neither Sasha or Irina had champion-calibre performances.
I know, they were really, very misguided at these Worlds, cause they weren't watching what was on the ice in front of them most the time, it seemed to me.
This whole "Clean Skate Saving A Competition" theory is a crapshoot.
Arakawa didn't save anything, that Olympics was the worst Olys for the Individual disciplines since 1994. Arakawa was clean, sure, but she was only good in comparison to the hot messes she had to follow. She wouldn't have even been the bronze medalist (or 4th) with that skate in 2002, 1998, or 2010 (Honestly, I'd put her 5th in 2010. Seriously, Mao was the one that could have saved the 2006 Olympics, but of course, she was like 2 milliseconds too young.) 2006 was simply abysmal. Buttle actually attempted a quad he knew he had almost no chance of landing, because it was worth more points. I mean, in what system is that ok (IJS)? Evan bombed the short, and came back in the long, Johnny Weir crapped the bed in the long after, what I think, was the best short program of the entire quad. The only one who was worth watching at that Olympics, in my opinion was the most underrated skater in that quad: Savoie. Sure, the lutz only had 1T on it, but that is REAL artistry. His PCS should have been MILES ahead of Evan and comparable with Stephane, Buttle, and Plushenko. His LP was masterful, special. Plushenko had never been my cup of tea (because he's almost more arrogant than Chan) but he landed everything.
Go back and look at the 2010 Olympic Ladies Final Flight. Now THAT is how an event goes off. Skater after Skater pushing each other with good performances. The short, too, was just top notch.
I know, they were really, very misguided at these Worlds, cause they weren't watching what was on the ice in front of them most the time, it seemed to me.
This whole "Clean Skate Saving A Competition" theory is a crapshoot.
Arakawa didn't save anything, that Olympics was the worst Olys for the Individual disciplines since 1994. Arakawa was clean, sure, but she was only good in comparison to the hot messes she had to follow. She wouldn't have even been the bronze medalist (or 4th) with that skate in 2002, 1998, or 2010 (Honestly, I'd put her 5th in 2010. Seriously, Mao was the one that could have saved the 2006 Olympics.
I respectfully disagree with you. The judging parameters created the situation where Carolina, Squared and Chan received enough marks to place higher than others who some of us non judges thought should have placed higher or won.
As for worst skated individual disciplines since 1994. I actually think an argument can be made that Tara Lipinski and her juniorish skating and sara hughes in rather ho h um skating are arguable not the most exciting winners or events. It's the system that creates these results; go ahead and change the system, yet again and you will cotninue to kill the sport. keep on whining folks and we might get heard and kill the sport further. What is saving the sport in some ways is that most of the world pays no attention to these boards or we would just further decimate the credibility of the sport. And really how redible is a sport that when you change the judging parameters you get totally different winners. Schuba to Janet Lynn; Manley could have won in several ways over Witt, Who wins also depends what glasses are you wearing 6.0 or Cop etc.
Sasha's performance at the Olympics was her best ever in terms of artistry/PCS.
Arakawa didn't save anything,...
Yagudin under any system.
Curry under any system.
G/G under any system.
No. Yu-Na would have won under any system. Yagudin under any system. Curry under any system. G/G under any system. Torvill & Dean under any system. Etc, etc. and so on. Also, we're not talking about the winner. We're talking about the field as a whole,