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Thread: Double standard? (Men's FS vs. Women's SP/Pairs FS)

  1. #31
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    simple answer, Chan won even with a messy FS and got the highest PCS
    and doesn't help that he won on home ice with heavy inflated scores he didn't deserve

  2. #32
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    This conversation was not meant to defend Chan's scores. I totally agree that he was overscored (although Ten arguably was overscored in PCS too). The conversation was about why other skaters who have a PCS advantage over the field are forgiven for errors, but people seem to get only hung up on Chan. I'm saying that Kostner (particularly in the SP) and the Germans (particularly in the LP) were overscored on their PCS, in spite of major errors. I agree that it wasn't as disruptive in Kostner's case (although there's something to be said about the silver medalist having only the 4th and 6th best TES scores over the competition, and being gifted -2's for a fall at that)... but the errors were certainly disruptive in the case of the Germans (although it's like that 3A throw at the end negated how bad they were skating - compared to what they're capable of, that is). And yet the Germans still received better PCS than previous programs of theirs that were skated better and were better choreographed.

    It's all part of a bigger question that skaters that are superior in PCS on the competition still get good results with errors. My point is that all "top" skaters, not just Chan, need to be made more accountable for major errors... Justifying Kostner's or the Germans' marks after errors by saying they have better SS, etc. is being hypocritical when you bash an erring Chan who has a similar PCS advantage over the field, even when the field does clean skates. It's absolute bs that PCS-inferior skaters need to skate with harder technical content and cleanly at that to even have a shot at besting a top skater with errors, but it's not like Chan is the only one to have benefited from that.

    I still can't believe people defend Kostner's 2nd place in the SP after a blatant fall on one of the 3 jumping passes. I expected Kostner's PCS to make up for it, but not so much as to put her in 2nd. Disruptive or not, it would be like if V/M or D/W fell in their short dance, and still placed 2nd in the segment because their overall skating is superior to everyone else.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post

    I still can't believe people defend Kostner's 2nd place in the SP after a blatant fall on one of the 3 jumping passes. I expected Kostner's PCS to make up for it, but not so much as to put her in 2nd. Disruptive or not, it would be like if V/M or D/W fell in their short dance, and still placed 2nd in the segment because their overall skating is superior to everyone else.
    Uhh....have you been watching ice dance at all?

    http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1112/SEG007.HTM

    http://youtu.be/O0dvv2_JBgM

    Skip to the 1:00 mark for the fall. Placed 2nd on the SD. Big disruptive fall. 8s and 9s in PCS across the board.

  4. #34
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    Oh, well there you go! Not cool, judges. I'm Canadian and I would never defend V/M placing 2nd after that fall, no matter how much better skaters they are than the rest of the field, nor would I try to justify it by saying "oh, but they skated the rest of the program brilliantly and didn't let it be disruptive". Seriously, how can anyone take skating seriously when that happens? Under 6.0, a fall in the SP or OD would (and should) immediately put you out of podium position.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Disruptive or not, it would be like if V/M or D/W fell in their short dance, and still placed 2nd in the segment because their overall skating is superior to everyone else.
    Not exactly good logic there. The gap between V/M and D/W skills and quality of dance vs The Rest of the Pack, is much larger than that of Kostner vs other top ladies, or Chan vs other top men. Or S/S vs the Pairs Posse chasing them. So they might have a fall cushion--maybe one fall or major mistake. I think judges are gentler on V/M's mistakes though, than they are on a D/W mistake or that of other dance teams. Chan in particular though, seems to have an almost infinite "fall and major mistake quota"--highly disruptive to PCS components--that the judges refuse to properly lower his marks for.

  6. #36
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    Double Standard

    The question being raised is not about the judging, but about fan's reaction, right? Why do fans and spectators get mad when Patrick Chan wins with a bad free skate?

    If this is the question, I think the answer is simple. Chan won. We do not want our world champion to back into the title as the result of idiosyncrasies of the scoring system.

    Whether someone got third when they deserved second is not so much in your face.

  7. #37
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    I will use Caro's program-ending fall in the LP to illustrate some thoughts. Now, I recognize that this is a strong and quality program. That is not the issue. But as it applies to the thread topic, consider this: why, do you suppose, did Lori/Caro choose to put that jump where they did? As most of us should be able to see, it was not merely to gain a second-half jump bonus. In my view, it's clear that the jump placement was deliberately designed to create an emphatic, thrilling emotional punctuation, to bring the house down, as it were. In short, they were planning for a PCS boost from this technical element. If Caro had hit that jump, I do not doubt that it would have had the desired effect.

    But having recognized this, what should, logically, be the effect of a fall on that aesthetically critical jump? Yes, I would argue that it should negatively impact PCS, just as its clean execution would have positively affected it. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.
    I agree with this post. The problem is, in it's rush to compartmentalize everything, the IJS does not put much emphasis on the actual program, despite the language "program components." Carolina Kostner's fall absolutely destroyed the mood of program that she was trying to weave.

    Yet, if you check off the bullets for choreography, say,

    Purpose -- check.

    Proportion -- check.

    Unity -- check.

    Utilization of personal and public space -- check.

    Pattern and ice coverage -- check.

    Phrasing and form -- check.

    Originality of purpose and design -- check.

    There you go.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsisjiejie View Post
    Not exactly good logic there. The gap between V/M and D/W skills and quality of dance vs The Rest of the Pack, is much larger than that of Kostner vs other top ladies, or Chan vs other top men. Or S/S vs the Pairs Posse chasing them. So they might have a fall cushion--maybe one fall or major mistake. I think judges are gentler on V/M's mistakes though, than they are on a D/W mistake or that of other dance teams. Chan in particular though, seems to have an almost infinite "fall and major mistake quota"--highly disruptive to PCS components--that the judges refuse to properly lower his marks for.
    Davis and White make mistakes???

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Double Standard

    The question being raised is not about the judging, but about fan's reaction, right? Why do fans and spectators get mad when Patrick Chan wins with a bad free skate?

    If this is the question, I think the answer is simple. Chan won. We do not want our world champion to back into the title as the result of idiosyncrasies of the scoring system.

    Whether someone got third when they deserved second is not so much in your face.
    I agree, and people seem to be making this point that he was the champion. But IMO, if Kim or Volosozhar/Trankov hadn't competed (due to injury or something) and runners-up Kostner and the Germans were bumped up to 1st with their performances it would be just as outrageous. I also wonder what the reaction would have been if Ten hadn't skated, and Chan was 15 points lower in the FS and still won if people would still be outraged (though the answer is obvious).

    As for Kostner checking off the points, I agree with those (and I'm sure V/M would get those checked off too)... but in the grand scheme of things, a fall in the SP or SD shouldn't put you in second place when others skate clean.

    If Kostner went out there and doubled all of her jumps, I bet you would still get people defending a high placement due to the quality of her skating. Say she had reduced her 3-3 to a clean 3T-2T, and essentially had a jump layout of 3T-2T, 3L, and 2A - likely placing her second... people wouldn't bat an eyelid, because she skated clean with a beautiful program, and not even be like "2nd with those jumps, when others did 3-3, 3F, 2A?!"

    I agree that Kostner is a wonderful skater, but it's a sport and she (and Chan/Germans/V-M, etc.) should not be propped up by PCS. Like, what's the point of any other skater even competing against Kostner (or V/M) if they have to put out a perfect skate with harder elements and hope she makes big errors in order to at least be only 1 or 2 points behind her?

    It's a sport and people should be attempting difficulty and be penalized when they make major errors. A fall in an SP or SD should immediately put you out of the top 3 if others skate clean... I don't care if the ice turns gold wherever you touch it -- you committed a major error on 1 of 3 jumping passes (not to mention, in Kostner's case, an inferior jump layout to begin with). If Chan fell on his quad in the SP, and still pulled in 90 points behind a clean Denis Ten, I'm pretty sure nobody here would be like "Well, he nailed the other aspects of his program, and is a way better skater than the others, so it's deserved." Yu Na landed 3Z-3T, 3F, 2A and Kostner did 3-3 with a fall (gifted with -2's, and the tech specialist didn't recognize the UR), 3L, 2A and was just 3 points behind her, and ahead of Murakami/Osmond who did 3-3, 3F, 2A. If people want to treat this as a legitimate sport you can't be defending people who technically falter.

    I get that people here will hate Chan just for the sake of hating Chan, but at least if you're going to criticize him, apply the same criticism to other skaters who also benefit from PCS advantages over the rest of the field.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsisjiejie View Post
    Not exactly good logic there. The gap between V/M and D/W skills and quality of dance vs The Rest of the Pack, is much larger than that of Kostner vs other top ladies, or Chan vs other top men. Or S/S vs the Pairs Posse chasing them. So they might have a fall cushion--maybe one fall or major mistake. I think judges are gentler on V/M's mistakes though, than they are on a D/W mistake or that of other dance teams. Chan in particular though, seems to have an almost infinite "fall and major mistake quota"--highly disruptive to PCS components--that the judges refuse to properly lower his marks for.
    I agree that their quality of dance is greater. But in something like ice dance where falls are so rare, one ice dance fall is like committing 2 or 3 falls in singles.

    Chan doesn't always have an almost infinite fall and major mistake quota. He lost the freeskate, didn't he? Not to mention, Hanyu, Fernandez and Takahashi all had falls and major mistakes too, over both segments of the competition.

    Another question about disruptions and skating clean:

    Javier Fernandez, like Ten, didn't fall or get negative GOE on any of his elements, and his program is better than Ten's (2 quads and 5 triples, versus 1 quad and 6 triples... doesn't that mean with a doubled quad and a singled lutz he should have gotten higher PCS than Ten with his "clean skate"?

  11. #41
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    I agree with CanadianSkaterGuy's post (#39).

    To me, Yu-na Kim saved the competition by laying down two "no doubt" programs. (Not that Davis and White were chopped liver...)
    Last edited by Mathman; 03-24-2013 at 04:35 PM.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I agree with CanadianSkaterGuy's post.

    To me, Yu-na Kim saved the competition by laying down two "no doubt" programs. (Not that Davis and White were chopped liver...)
    Davis and White were stunning in their SD, and even without V/M's twizzle error I would have placed them ahead. The FD was closer, but I still would have had D/W again.

    Yu Na Kim definitely saved the competition -- I couldn't stomach another World Champion with two flawed programs, each with at least one major mistake. But the only thing that justified Kostner's silver is her nailing that awesome 3F-3T -- with the popped loop and 3S<<(fall) it was like she left out two jumps, and it was still enough to place 2nd. It's scary though that she could have fallen again and still likely placed ahead of Murakami.

  13. #43
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    PS.

    If Kostner went out there and doubled all of her jumps, I bet you would still get people defending a high placement due to the quality of her skating.
    I don't know about that. Kostner has been thoroughly roasted over the years for high placements despite weak technical content and mistakes.

    Not as much as Chan, but that's probably due to gallantry. One doesn't like to wade in with both fists when beating up on ladies.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I agree, and people seem to be making this point that he was the champion. But IMO, if Kim or Volosozhar/Trankov hadn't competed (due to injury or something) and runners-up Kostner and the Germans were bumped up to 1st with their performances it would be just as outrageous. I also wonder what the reaction would have been if Ten hadn't skated, and Chan was 15 points lower in the FS and still won if people would still be outraged (though the answer is obvious).

    As for Kostner checking off the points, I agree with those (and I'm sure V/M would get those checked off too)... but in the grand scheme of things, a fall in the SP or SD shouldn't put you in second place when others skate clean.

    If Kostner went out there and doubled all of her jumps, I bet you would still get people defending a high placement due to the quality of her skating. Say she had reduced her 3-3 to a clean 3T-2T, and essentially had a jump layout of 3T-2T, 3L, and 2A - likely placing her second... people wouldn't bat an eyelid, because she skated clean with a beautiful program, and not even be like "2nd with those jumps, when others did 3-3, 3F, 2A?!"

    I agree that Kostner is a wonderful skater, but it's a sport and she (and Chan/Germans/V-M, etc.) should not be propped up by PCS. Like, what's the point of any other skater even competing against Kostner (or V/M) if they have to put out a perfect skate with harder elements and hope she makes big errors in order to at least be only 1 or 2 points behind her?

    It's a sport and people should be attempting difficulty and be penalized when they make major errors. A fall in an SP or SD should immediately put you out of the top 3 if others skate clean... I don't care if the ice turns gold wherever you touch it -- you committed a major error on 1 of 3 jumping passes (not to mention, in Kostner's case, an inferior jump layout to begin with). If Chan fell on his quad in the SP, and still pulled in 90 points behind a clean Denis Ten, I'm pretty sure nobody here would be like "Well, he nailed the other aspects of his program, and is a way better skater than the others, so it's deserved." Yu Na landed 3Z-3T, 3F, 2A and Kostner did 3-3 with a fall (gifted with -2's, and the tech specialist didn't recognize the UR), 3L, 2A and was just 3 points behind her, and ahead of Murakami/Osmond who did 3-3, 3F, 2A. If people want to treat this as a legitimate sport you can't be defending people who technically falter.

    I get that people here will hate Chan just for the sake of hating Chan, but at least if you're going to criticize him, apply the same criticism to other skaters who also benefit from PCS advantages over the rest of the field.


    Alot of"IF"s. Stop living in the hypothetical. Kim skated, she won. V/T beat everyone. The reality is neither Kostner nor Chan not S/S should have won. However, one of them DID win, because the system is a stupid. I've complained about Kostner's gifts many, many times. However, she's never won a world championship while falling twice and skating a complete mess of a long. Also, I don't argue she was held up in the PCS in the short. However, she also never has been as blatantly arrogant as Chan... saying that Denis didn't walk through the door he gave him, saying that he thinks he deserves the scores he got. Such disgusting arrogance, and all of it is propped up by the judges. Chan deserves all of the hatred he gets, and it colors his skating, for many, including me. I am going to be SO happy if he ends up off the podium at Sochi. He's definitely NOT going to win with that kind of free skate at Olys (I say this, hoping that it is true.)

    If Ten hadn't skated, and Chan won... I would be upset, if only, because I dislike Chan in the extreme. However, I would have though that he won a messy event. Also, the fact is Denis Ten did skate circles around Chan at these Worlds, and lost, unfairly, to a sloppy, sub-par Chan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I agree, and people seem to be making this point that he was the champion. But IMO, if Kim or Volosozhar/Trankov hadn't competed (due to injury or something) and runners-up Kostner and the Germans were bumped up to 1st with their performances it would be just as outrageous. I also wonder what the reaction would have been if Ten hadn't skated, and Chan was 15 points lower in the FS and still won if people would still be outraged (though the answer is obvious).
    I think if there was no Yuna and V/T, there would be plenty of outrage and nasty comments towards current silver medalists. Some posters on this board were vicious towards Asada and Kostner in the past when they won with mistakes, so, no, it's not just about Chan.

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