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Thread: Double standard? (Men's FS vs. Women's SP/Pairs FS)

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by zschultz1986 View Post
    Alot of"IF"s. Stop living in the hypothetical. Kim skated, she won. V/T beat everyone. The reality is neither Kostner nor Chan not S/S should have won. However, one of them DID win, because the system is a stupid. I've complained about Kostner's gifts many, many times. However, she's never won a world championship while falling twice and skating a complete mess of a long. .
    Actually Kostner skated a wonderful long last year. Yeah, she was arguably propped up in the short, but she clearly outclassed everyone last year -- the only issue is that it was an easy program (for what she's capable of, or for what one would consider World Champion calibre). But it wasn't messy like this year's skates that earned her a silver.

    I also agree that Chan is more outspoken and could be more humble, but he was facing a lot of flack for something that was out of his hands. It must be hard being asked after you won "Did you deserve to win? Did the judges get it wrong?" when you're already disappointed in yourself and likely yourself questioning the legitimacy of your win. That comment about Ten not walking through the door was an arrogant statement though, seeing as how Denis really had the skate of his life and save for the flip tried his hardest to outskate Chan -- and he did by winning the FS, he just couldn't make up the SP gap.

    I hate the general statement "left the door open and so-and-so walks right through it"... it almost debases a legitimate victory -- like "he only won because I made errors". And it's a stupid idiom because somebody could skate earlier or later than somebody else without really paying heed to what the other does. If Ten skated before Patrick then you can't say Patrick left the door open for him.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by SGrand View Post
    Davis and White make mistakes???
    In the sentence you are quoting from, I'm not speaking about this competition, but about the totality of their competitions over the 2-3 years, since they, V/M, and the regular cast of dancers have been going against each other. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

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    [QUOTE=CanadianSkaterGuy;730309]I agree that their quality of dance is greater. But in something like ice dance where falls are so rare, one ice dance fall is like committing 2 or 3 falls in singles.
    {/QUOTE]

    But in dance, there are other major mistakes besides outright butt-falls: twizzle stumbles, lifts that go nowhere, tangled-up spins, etc. All of these can (and should) meaningfully affect a team's score. In singles, there doesn't seem to be much of anything that's considered a "major" mistake anymore....at least not for Chan and Kostner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsisjiejie View Post
    In the sentence you are quoting from, I'm not speaking about this competition, but about the totality of their competitions over the 2-3 years, since they, V/M, and the regular cast of dancers have been going against each other. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
    Haha, sorry, I was just being silly! I'm a fan of both D/W and V/M, but I always feel as though I'm holding my breath when Tessa and Scott are skating, but with Meryl and Charlie I'm never ever nervous because they never seem yo make mistakes. Sorry for the confusion, I should have clarified in my post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    This conversation was not meant to defend Chan's scores. I totally agree that he was overscored (although Ten arguably was overscored in PCS too). The conversation was about why other skaters who have a PCS advantage over the field are forgiven for errors, but people seem to get only hung up on Chan. I'm saying that Kostner (particularly in the SP) and the Germans (particularly in the LP) were overscored on their PCS, in spite of major errors. I agree that it wasn't as disruptive in Kostner's case (although there's something to be said about the silver medalist having only the 4th and 6th best TES scores over the competition, and being gifted -2's for a fall at that)... but the errors were certainly disruptive in the case of the Germans (although it's like that 3A throw at the end negated how bad they were skating - compared to what they're capable of, that is). And yet the Germans still received better PCS than previous programs of theirs that were skated better and were better choreographed.

    It's all part of a bigger question that skaters that are superior in PCS on the competition still get good results with errors. My point is that all "top" skaters, not just Chan, need to be made more accountable for major errors... Justifying Kostner's or the Germans' marks after errors by saying they have better SS, etc. is being hypocritical when you bash an erring Chan who has a similar PCS advantage over the field, even when the field does clean skates. It's absolute bs that PCS-inferior skaters need to skate with harder technical content and cleanly at that to even have a shot at besting a top skater with errors, but it's not like Chan is the only one to have benefited from that.

    I still can't believe people defend Kostner's 2nd place in the SP after a blatant fall on one of the 3 jumping passes. I expected Kostner's PCS to make up for it, but not so much as to put her in 2nd. Disruptive or not, it would be like if V/M or D/W fell in their short dance, and still placed 2nd in the segment because their overall skating is superior to everyone else.
    ita

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    Quote Originally Posted by zschultz1986 View Post
    Wrong. Sure, there is difference in quality betwen Chan and Ten's skating, but not enough to make up for the fact that Ten did two very enjoyable, well executed, programs, while Chan did one good Short and then bombed the long. Saying the best of the worst implies that no one skated well. Wrong. Ten skated extremely well, stayed on his feet, and performed the hell out of two programs. Chan wasn't even the best of the worst, a
    Unintended artistic impression? Sure. But is was one hell of an unintended artistic impression. Seriously, she went boom RIGHT on beat. Had she played dead. I would have given her all the 6.0s in the world for amazing improvisation.
    Obviously the judges disagree with you.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Oh, well there you go! Not cool, judges. I'm Canadian and I would never defend V/M placing 2nd after that fall, no matter how much better skaters they are than the rest of the field, nor would I try to justify it by saying "oh, but they skated the rest of the program brilliantly and didn't let it be disruptive". Seriously, how can anyone take skating seriously when that happens? Under 6.0, a fall in the SP or OD would (and should) immediately put you out of podium position.
    There are quite a few Olympic medalists who had falls, including Evgeni Plushenko (silver over Tim Goebel despite a fall in the SP), and Sasha Cohen's two fall Olympic silver performance.

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    True, but those who ended up falling also had those below them make errors, the only real exception being Goebel coming 3rd to Plushenko/Yagudin in spite of a clean, more technically demanding FS. I'm okay with a silver medalist having errors if others they're placed ahead of also had errors, but if others skated cleanly and with difficult content, and you happen to have a fall, then it's hard to justify why you deserve to be placed higher.

    Plus in the case of Sasha, she admitted that the silver was a gift from the judges, and knew that she didn't earn the silver so much as be slightly better than Slutskaya. Thank goodness for Arakawa being there, because neither Sasha or Irina had champion-calibre performances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    Obviously the judges disagree with you.
    I know, they were really, very misguided at these Worlds, cause they weren't watching what was on the ice in front of them most the time, it seemed to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    True, but those who ended up falling also had those below them make errors, the only real exception being Goebel coming 3rd to Plushenko/Yagudin in spite of a clean, more technically demanding FS. I'm okay with a silver medalist having errors if others they're placed ahead of also had errors, but if others skated cleanly and with difficult content, and you happen to have a fall, then it's hard to justify why you deserve to be placed higher.

    Plus in the case of Sasha, she admitted that the silver was a gift from the judges, and knew that she didn't earn the silver so much as be slightly better than Slutskaya. Thank goodness for Arakawa being there, because neither Sasha or Irina had champion-calibre performances.
    This whole "Clean Skate Saving A Competition" theory is a crapshoot.

    Arakawa didn't save anything, that Olympics was the worst Olys for the Individual disciplines since 1994. Arakawa was clean, sure, but she was only good in comparison to the hot messes she had to follow. She wouldn't have even been the bronze medalist (or 4th) with that skate in 2002, 1998, or 2010 (Honestly, I'd put her 5th in 2010. Seriously, Mao was the one that could have saved the 2006 Olympics, but of course, she was like 2 milliseconds too young.) 2006 was simply abysmal. Buttle actually attempted a quad he knew he had almost no chance of landing, because it was worth more points. I mean, in what system is that ok (IJS)? Evan bombed the short, and came back in the long, Johnny Weir crapped the bed in the long after, what I think, was the best short program of the entire quad. The only one who was worth watching at that Olympics, in my opinion was the most underrated skater in that quad: Savoie. Sure, the lutz only had 1T on it, but that is REAL artistry. His PCS should have been MILES ahead of Evan and comparable with Stephane, Buttle, and Plushenko. His LP was masterful, special. Plushenko had never been my cup of tea (because he's almost more arrogant than Chan) but he landed everything.

    Go back and look at the 2010 Olympic Ladies Final Flight. Now THAT is how an event goes off. Skater after Skater pushing each other with good performances. The short, too, was just top notch.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by zschultz1986 View Post
    I know, they were really, very misguided at these Worlds, cause they weren't watching what was on the ice in front of them most the time, it seemed to me.



    This whole "Clean Skate Saving A Competition" theory is a crapshoot.

    Arakawa didn't save anything, that Olympics was the worst Olys for the Individual disciplines since 1994. Arakawa was clean, sure, but she was only good in comparison to the hot messes she had to follow. She wouldn't have even been the bronze medalist (or 4th) with that skate in 2002, 1998, or 2010 (Honestly, I'd put her 5th in 2010. Seriously, Mao was the one that could have saved the 2006 Olympics, but of course, she was like 2 milliseconds too young.) 2006 was simply abysmal. Buttle actually attempted a quad he knew he had almost no chance of landing, because it was worth more points. I mean, in what system is that ok (IJS)? Evan bombed the short, and came back in the long, Johnny Weir crapped the bed in the long after, what I think, was the best short program of the entire quad. The only one who was worth watching at that Olympics, in my opinion was the most underrated skater in that quad: Savoie. Sure, the lutz only had 1T on it, but that is REAL artistry. His PCS should have been MILES ahead of Evan and comparable with Stephane, Buttle, and Plushenko. His LP was masterful, special. Plushenko had never been my cup of tea (because he's almost more arrogant than Chan) but he landed everything.

    Go back and look at the 2010 Olympic Ladies Final Flight. Now THAT is how an event goes off. Skater after Skater pushing each other with good performances. The short, too, was just top notch.
    I respectfully disagree with you. The judging parameters created the situation where Carolina, Squared and Chan received enough marks to place higher than others who some of us non judges thought should have placed higher or won.

    As for worst skated individual disciplines since 1994. I actually think an argument can be made that Tara Lipinski and her juniorish skating and sara hughes in rather ho h um skating are arguable not the most exciting winners or events. It's the system that creates these results; go ahead and change the system, yet again and you will cotninue to kill the sport. keep on whining folks and we might get heard and kill the sport further. What is saving the sport in some ways is that most of the world pays no attention to these boards or we would just further decimate the credibility of the sport. And really how redible is a sport that when you change the judging parameters you get totally different winners. Schuba to Janet Lynn; Manley could have won in several ways over Witt, Who wins also depends what glasses are you wearing 6.0 or Cop etc.

  11. #56
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    Sasha's performance at the Olympics was her best ever in terms of artistry/PCS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zschultz1986 View Post
    I know, they were really, very misguided at these Worlds, cause they weren't watching what was on the ice in front of them most the time, it seemed to me.



    This whole "Clean Skate Saving A Competition" theory is a crapshoot.

    Arakawa didn't save anything, that Olympics was the worst Olys for the Individual disciplines since 1994. Arakawa was clean, sure, but she was only good in comparison to the hot messes she had to follow. She wouldn't have even been the bronze medalist (or 4th) with that skate in 2002, 1998, or 2010 (Honestly, I'd put her 5th in 2010. Seriously, Mao was the one that could have saved the 2006 Olympics.
    Mao not making the 2006 Olympics was a bit of a travesty. All these people playing it safe, and you have a breath of fresh air attempting 3-3 and 3A. I mean, it worked out, since Japan won the gold anyways... but such bs that she wasn't there. I don't think Arakawa "saved" the Olympics in terms of technical ability (and it sucks that she's capable of so much more than she showed, but played it safe after her competitors bombed). She did, however, save the Olympics in terms of better skating coming out on top, after Baiul/Lipinski/Hughes-type skaters. Arguably Lipinski and Hughes deserved to win on the nights they won, but Arakawa actually delivered an artistically superior performance (although the 4 donut spins were ridiculous, lol), that was clean (a lot to be said on a night when many were faltering).

    And yes, the 2010 competition was a perfect example of how top skaters elevate themselves at the right moment. I just hope we see something similar at Sochi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    I respectfully disagree with you. The judging parameters created the situation where Carolina, Squared and Chan received enough marks to place higher than others who some of us non judges thought should have placed higher or won.

    As for worst skated individual disciplines since 1994. I actually think an argument can be made that Tara Lipinski and her juniorish skating and sara hughes in rather ho h um skating are arguable not the most exciting winners or events. It's the system that creates these results; go ahead and change the system, yet again and you will cotninue to kill the sport. keep on whining folks and we might get heard and kill the sport further. What is saving the sport in some ways is that most of the world pays no attention to these boards or we would just further decimate the credibility of the sport. And really how redible is a sport that when you change the judging parameters you get totally different winners. Schuba to Janet Lynn; Manley could have won in several ways over Witt, Who wins also depends what glasses are you wearing 6.0 or Cop etc.
    No. Yu-Na would have won under any system. Yagudin under any system. Curry under any system. G/G under any system. Torvill & Dean under any system. Etc, etc. and so on. Also, we're not talking about the winner. We're talking about the field as a whole,

    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Sasha's performance at the Olympics was her best ever in terms of artistry/PCS.
    Yes, once I stopped worrying about her jumps (because I had resigned myself to the fact that there would be mistakes) I really could appreciate the performance. She didn't let the program go and I really did feel she was Juliet in that moment (which oddly enough, the falls helped with the artistic impression, which is odd to me, but they did).

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by zschultz1986 View Post
    Arakawa didn't save anything,...
    Still, I appreciated her performance. She stayed on her feet, she did some cool moves like an Ina Bauer and an unassisted I-spiral, she skated to emotionally satisfying music. Just what people want to see.

    She bailed on her two planned triple-triples, but that is of interest only to skating insiders.

    The reason that the ISU can score events like Worlds the way they do is because no one is watching. I don't think they will be able to give the Olympic gold medal to a skater with two falls in the LP in front of a billion people and the IOC. This also means that they will not want to give any skater an insurmountable lead in the short program.

    Yagudin under any system.
    Strangly enough, commentator Scott Hamilton said of Yagudin's skate that he just conceded the LP to Plushenko. Scott speculated that Goebel should have won, after Yagudin's lackluster Man in the Iron Mask.

    Curry under any system.
    Sergei Volkov won the figures portion and Toller Cranston the short progra (second in long). I think it is possible to imagine a scoring system in which the final podium would have come out differently. (Plus, I think at the time Curry's performance in the LP was not immediately acknowledged as the most masterful skating performance of all time, including everything that has happened since. I think this judgment formed over the years following.)

    G/G under any system.
    You mean 1988, right? In 1994 Mishkutenok and Dmitriev were better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zschultz1986 View Post
    No. Yu-Na would have won under any system. Yagudin under any system. Curry under any system. G/G under any system. Torvill & Dean under any system. Etc, etc. and so on. Also, we're not talking about the winner. We're talking about the field as a whole,
    I agree with all except for T/D. They never had to do the footwork, twizzles, dance spins, or lifts like those that are required under CoP. They would however get excellent PCS. But pre-IJS ice dance is more of a performance, with a technical focus on edge quality and speed moreso than actual difficulty. You would wonder how the 90's would react if D/W or V/M went back in time and skated their current FDs.

    Even G/G is questionable because the technical content they had was inferior to today's standards for winning at least. Again, their artistry is better than most, if not all, of today's pairs teams so their PCS would be high, but it's really difficult to compare pre- and post-IJS skaters. Of course Yagudin and Kim have quads and 3-3s and that hasn't changed too much.

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