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Thread: Double standard? (Men's FS vs. Women's SP/Pairs FS)

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I agree with all except for T/D. They never had to do the footwork, twizzles, dance spins, or lifts like those that are required under CoP. They would however get excellent PCS. But pre-IJS ice dance is more of a performance, with a technical focus on edge quality and speed moreso than actual difficulty. You would wonder how the 90's would react if D/W or V/M went back in time and skated their current FDs.

    Even G/G is questionable because the technical content they had was inferior to today's standards for winning at least. Again, their artistry is better than most, if not all, of today's pairs teams so their PCS would be high, but it's really difficult to compare pre- and post-IJS skaters. Of course Yagudin and Kim have quads and 3-3s and that hasn't changed too much.
    That's because Torvill/Dean never trained for things like CoP style lifts, twizzles, etc. But given their skill with the blade I have no problem believing that they had the ability. They had no reason to, it just wasn't necessary back then. Ditto with G/G, actually their "artistry" during their competitive days was for the most part quite mediocre, it was their superior technical prowess that elevated them to their wins. Most of that artistic stuff we associate with G/G came after they turned pro. Remember, G/G were actually doing quad twists in the 1980s! I bet if G/G were born 30 years later, they would be CoP masters as well, their pure technique and incredible skating skills would make modern CoP technical content chopped liver for them. They just didn't train for today's standards because it wasn't required or even fully appreciated at the time. I remember reading somewhere that G/G actually stopped doing the quad twist in competition because the judges kept thinking it was a triple anyway. The thing is, 6.0 prioritized a clean program. Strategically, in terms of risk/reward under 6.0, it made much more sense for G/G to skate easier but clean performances as opposed to more difficult programs with higher chance of mistakes (which makes much more sense under the incentives of CoP).

    Also--about Shiz in 2006, Shizuka actually skated before Irina, but after Cohen. She did play it safe after Cohen bombed, but she had no idea of knowing that Irina would bomb (I don't think anyone really did)

    And Scott Hamilton was pretty much the only English language commentator I remember saying that Yagudin conceded the LP to Plush and was in danger of losing it to Goebel, pretty much everyone else thought Yagudin had won after he finished skating.

  2. #62
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    Its not double standard. Its the painful number of times that Chan won with multiple mistakes. Sure there are a few world and olymp champ who won with a fall. Chan had been winning competition with average of 3-4 glarring mistakes, and the average is keep going up.

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    Yagudin or Michelle would still have won under CoP

    but G/G ? yes they were romantic but they had double twists and double jumps sorry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sky_fly20 View Post
    Yagudin r Michelle can won even on CoP

    but G/G ? yes they were romantic but they had double twists and double jumps sorry.
    Actually G/G were capable of a quad twist, and were the first to perform it at Worlds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjMQKE5Gj24

    And they performed 3Tw several times. SBS triples, not so much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sky_fly20 View Post
    Michelle would still have won under CoP
    Hm, she would have been nailed for flutzing and URs, but her PCS still would have been high. Under CoP Michelle actually didn't do well at all, but there's no denying at her peak she likely would have still won many of her competitions even under CoP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Actually G/G were capable of a quad twist, and were the first to perform it at Worlds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjMQKE5Gj24

    And they performed 3Tw several times. SBS triples, not so much.
    definitely that was Not a quad twist

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    Quote Originally Posted by sky_fly20 View Post
    Yagudin or Michelle would still have won under CoP

    but G/G ? yes they were romantic but they had double twists and double jumps sorry.
    Yagudin and G&G would have still dominated under COP. Michelle would have done very well but less dominant than she was under 6.0. Probably 2 or 3 World titles instead of 6.0, even in the era she skated in (whereas two of her chief rivals Slutskaya and Cohen would have been more successful under 6.0, and more successful against Kwan in general than under 6.0).

  8. #68
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    Where Michelle really would have cleaned up is figures. Alas, she was born into a different era and never learned them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zschultz1986 View Post
    Arakawa didn't save anything, that Olympics was the worst Olys for the Individual disciplines since 1994. Arakawa was clean, sure, but she was only good in comparison to the hot messes she had to follow. She wouldn't have even been the bronze medalist (or 4th) with that skate in 2002, 1998, or 2010 (Honestly, I'd put her 5th in 2010.
    LOL. Arakawa would blow 2002 medalists out of the water. Her skating skill and her programs are better than all of them. Her jumps were so secure, with huge speed going in and out. Her spiral put all of their spirals to shame. She maximized her COP spins to get the highest level.
    In 1998, Michelle and Tara are little girls, skating next to a lady. Shizuka would get higher presentation, for sure. And you think Chen Lu can beat Shizuka? Only with an insane panel of judges.

    In 2010, her actual programs wouldn't beat Yuna, might not beat Mao, but definitely above Joannie. And she was playing safe to make sure she get a medal. If she skated anything like practice, I think she would challenge Yuna. In 2006, the GOE and PCS were relatively low for everyone, and with a really safe content, she still beat Mirai's score. How would she place 5th?

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    Shizuka would have easily won atleast the bronze at every Olympics with her 2006 performances. Beyond that, it is hard to say. Here would be my guesswork though:

    1998- Under 6.0 she probably loses to Michelle and Tara. The judges would just say 7 triples to 5, and that is the end of it. However under COP she probably wins out over both. As the 98 programs were designed for 6.0, and Shizuka's for COP, is it really fair to compare in a sense? Anyone who even dares to think she finishes behind any of the performances of Chen, Butyrskaya, or Slutskaya from 98 under any scoring system is sniffing some silly glue though. Actually should note too that had Shizuka been skating under 6.0 she probably does 6 triples, even with one doubled intended triple, as it is COP that does not allow 7 triples without a triple-triple or triple-triple sequence planned, which might have given her a fighting shot even under 6.0 as Kwan was slow that day, and Tara's jump quality, non jump elements, line and maturity dont compare to Shizuka.

    2002- Under 6.0 she wins silver behind Hughes probably. Under COP she hammers the field and Hughes drops to about 6th with her flutzes, massive UR issues, and mediocre SP. Actually even under 6.0 she would have a good shot considering an extremely sluggish Slutskaya with one of her worst ever performances in a major event (in some ways worse than 2006) nearly beat her. Someone thinking she is placed below Kwan or Cohen's 2002 performances, again put away the sniffing glue.

    2010- No shot at gold obviously. Could have been close for silver or bronze though, as Mao had mistakes in the LP and so did Joannie. SP scoring would have been critical.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by sky_fly20 View Post
    definitely that was Not a quad twist
    Sure was. Look at the replay at 5:23.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Hughes drops to about 6th with her flutzes, massive UR issues, and mediocre SP.
    I agree with most of what you say, but Hughes in 6th? That's ridiculous. Especially after the mistakes made by the rest of the field? In her freeskate, there weren't "massive UR issues" both 3L were just shy over 1/4 rotation (the 3T-3L was really close) and neither 3-3 were even remotely close to downgrades) .... and considering it was a 3L on the tail end of each 3-3, they would still each get 70% 3.6 points, which is only 0.5 shy of if she did clean 3T's instead of UR'ed 3Ls on the ends. And compared to the field she was the "cleanest".

    Her SP wasn't mediocre either. The only element that was iffy was the 3F with a slight two foot and break in the steps preceding it, but everything was cleanly rotated (even if her 3Z-2L was flutzed). I would have had her behind Butyrskaya maybe, but points-wise she'd still be in the hunt after the SP, and would win it after the LP.

    But yes, Arakawa would have likely beaten her though (even if Hughes upped her levels and all that to 2006 standards).

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by sky_fly20 View Post
    Yagudin or Michelle would still have won under CoP

    but G/G ? yes they were romantic but they had double twists and double jumps sorry.
    G/G weren't "romantic" until late 1988/early 1989, Gordeeva was much too young before that. By then, they were already Olympic champions and 2-time world champions. People always associate G/G with being romantic, but that's only their late/pro career. For much of their competitive career they were basically cute kids skating really fast with big beautiful tricks. No romance, no real "artistry" for that matter. But they were consistent with incredible pairs skills, which counted for a lot under 6.0.

    G/G also had a quad/triple twist. That said, G/G did struggle with SBS triples but I wonder how much time they put into actually training them given that their double jumps were usually more than enough to consistently beat Valova/Vasiliev with their groundbreaking SBS 3Ts.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Where Michelle really would have cleaned up is figures. Alas, she was born into a different era and never learned them.
    Um, no. She learned them, she just didn't have to compete them (at least not at top elite levels). At the time she burst into our lives in the early 1990's, the USFSA still had testing requirements for each competitive level that included both figures test and free skating test. The correct levels had to be passed in order to compete at a specific level...even though the figures testing and the free skating testing for a given person might be on a different time track. I remember when I was diligently practicing my basic figures back in 1993-94 (not long after Michelle turned senior), that senior level competitive skaters still had to have passed 3rd Figures Test (ratcheted down over the years from ultimate level 8th Test) AND the senior free skate test. I have no idea when she started practicing figures, but given the time it usually takes most skaters to successfully prepare and pass the Prelim, 1st, 2nd, and then 3rd Test, I'd estimate she'd been doing them for many years. And she may have had to achieve a higher level (4th or 5th test) at the time she became a novice level skater, since that was the requirement a few years earlier. I can't quite remember what years she was at what level. The requirement to test Figures as a precondition for competitive skating was of course, dropped by the mid-1990's in the USA, with Moves in the Field entering the picture as the substitute skills sequence for USFSA skaters.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    G/G weren't "romantic" until late 1988/early 1989, Gordeeva was much too young before that. By then, they were already Olympic champions and 2-time world champions. People always associate G/G with being romantic, but that's only their late/pro career. For much of their competitive career they were basically cute kids skating really fast with big beautiful tricks. No romance, no real "artistry" for that matter. But they were consistent with incredible pairs skills, which counted for a lot under 6.0.

    G/G also had a quad/triple twist. That said, G/G did struggle with SBS triples but I wonder how much time they put into actually training them given that their double jumps were usually more than enough to consistently beat Valova/Vasiliev with their groundbreaking SBS 3Ts.
    When Katia was a pro, and competed alone, she would try a 3t in competition, but it never was a consistently successful jump for her, AFAIR.

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