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Thread: Double standard? (Men's FS vs. Women's SP/Pairs FS)

  1. #76
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    Just because S/S did not win the Pairs event does not mean the double standard isn't there. If the Russians weren't there or say, have to withdraw due to an accident, somehow that should affect the legitimacy of S/S placement given that they already skated? This made no sense.

  2. #77
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsisjiejie View Post
    Um, no. She learned them, she just didn't have to compete them (at least not at top elite levels). At the time she burst into our lives in the early 1990's, the USFSA still had testing requirements for each competitive level that included both figures test and free skating test. The correct levels had to be passed in order to compete at a specific level...even though the figures testing and the free skating testing for a given person might be on a different time track. I remember when I was diligently practicing my basic figures back in 1993-94 (not long after Michelle turned senior), that senior level competitive skaters still had to have passed 3rd Figures Test (ratcheted down over the years from ultimate level 8th Test) AND the senior free skate test. I have no idea when she started practicing figures, but given the time it usually takes most skaters to successfully prepare and pass the Prelim, 1st, 2nd, and then 3rd Test, I'd estimate she'd been doing them for many years. And she may have had to achieve a higher level (4th or 5th test) at the time she became a novice level skater, since that was the requirement a few years earlier. I can't quite remember what years she was at what level. The requirement to test Figures as a precondition for competitive skating was of course, dropped by the mid-1990's in the USA, with Moves in the Field entering the picture as the substitute skills sequence for USFSA skaters.
    I can attest to reading about Michelle Kwan completing level 4 figures somewhere...can't find where, though.

  3. #78
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    ^ I think what I meant to say about Michelle was that if she had been born 600 years (exactly!) earlier she would have been the patron saint of figure skating, instead of St. Lidwina.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by sky_fly20 View Post
    definitely that was Not a quad twist
    No it was not, good eye!

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Sure was. Look at the replay at 5:23.
    Sorry but no it wasn't.

    He caught her as she was completing her 3rd rotation and her back was to him when he caught her clearly showing the 4th rotation was never completed. It would have only counted as a triple, a messy one at that. They also would have (should have) received negatives on GOE across the board.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Just because S/S did not win the Pairs event does not mean the double standard isn't there. If the Russians weren't there or say, have to withdraw due to an accident, somehow that should affect the legitimacy of S/S placement given that they already skated? This made no sense.
    This is true. And I bet that S/S winning with that performance would have been just as bad as Chan winning. But since the right team won, people are a bit less frustrated with the overall result. It's a natural reaction. Not to mention S/S didn't had the epic meltdown Chan did. They messed up their side by side jumps, but this means 2 elements out of 12. Plus it helped they ended the program with a throw 3A. I still think they should have placed fourth overall though. I don't think people who are outraged by Chan winning agree with S/S silver medal so I see no double standard here. People are more outraged with Chan's medal because he won with a terrible performance, defending a world title which was also won with a controversy.
    Regarding to Kostner's silver, yes, she was maybe outscored in the SP, but nowhere near Chan's level. And she almost lost the silver to a flawed Mao. Kanako had many Ur issues and the other ladies do not have the quality as top 3 have or were too far behind after the SP (Zijun). Carolina winning (say if Yuna stayed home) would not have been as bad as Chan winning IMO, and that because there was no other lady who had the competition of her life and placed below her. With Chan on the other hand, he beat an almost perfect Denis Ten.
    Not to mention S/S and Carolina didn't brag about how they deserved the medals and how the others didn't took the opportunity to overtake them. I don't see Kostner saying left and right "Mao should have landed that 3A cleanly, I bet she is kicking herself today". He could have been more gracious about the result, or at least he should have kept his mouth shut.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    LOL. Arakawa would blow 2002 medalists out of the water. Her skating skill and her programs are better than all of them. Her jumps were so secure, with huge speed going in and out. Her spiral put all of their spirals to shame. She maximized her COP spins to get the highest level.
    In 1998, Michelle and Tara are little girls, skating next to a lady. Shizuka would get higher presentation, for sure. And you think Chen Lu can beat Shizuka? Only with an insane panel of judges.

    In 2010, her actual programs wouldn't beat Yuna, might not beat Mao, but definitely above Joannie. And she was playing safe to make sure she get a medal. If she skated anything like practice, I think she would challenge Yuna. In 2006, the GOE and PCS were relatively low for everyone, and with a really safe content, she still beat Mirai's score. How would she place 5th?
    I agree that in any era Shizuka at her best would do pretty spectacularly.

    In 1998, though, I have to disagree just to say that Michelle didn't skate like a little girl at that time. (I know I'm biased, but she did have a mature style, and she completed her moves beautifully and indisputably expressed the music.) Tara certainly skated like a child, albeit a very talented one. Whether Shizuka at her best would have beaten Michelle at that Olympics would not have depended on the comparative maturity of the two skaters.

    As you say, Arakawa would have had the edge in terms of jumps, partly because Michelle had lost training time to the stress fracture and didn't have the triple-triple. Fair enough. On those terms, I wouldn't have minded Arakawa beating Michelle for the gold. I did mind Tara beating her because her overall style was so meatless compared to Michelle's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    In 1998, though, I have to disagree just to say that Michelle didn't skate like a little girl at that time. (I know I'm biased, but she did have a mature style, and she completed her moves beautifully and indisputably expressed the music.) Tara certainly skated like a child, albeit a very talented one. Whether Shizuka at her best would have beaten Michelle at that Olympics would not have depended on the comparative maturity of the two skaters.

    As you say, Arakawa would have had the edge in terms of jumps, partly because Michelle had lost training time to the stress fracture and didn't have the triple-triple. Fair enough. On those terms, I wouldn't have minded Arakawa beating Michelle for the gold. I did mind Tara beating her because her overall style was so meatless compared to Michelle's.
    Well, I don't think Shizuka would beat Tara or Michelle in 1998 under the 6.0 system. I just think she would beat them in the presentation mark only. I remember I was really impressed by Michelle's programs, but now that I think about it, her young age made her programs more impressive. With the age factor taken out, it's hard to put her over Shizuka in term of presentation.

    I think it was crazy to suggest that Shizuka wouldn't medal in any other Olympics with her 2006 performances. I thought her LP was the best Turandot ever. Her spiral and Ina Bauer were the highlights for me. Unforgettable moments.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by mousepotato View Post
    He caught her as she was completing her 3rd rotation and her back was to him when he caught her clearly showing the 4th rotation was never completed. It would have only counted as a triple, a messy one at that. They also would have (should have) received negatives on GOE across the board.
    From where she vaults up to when her landing foot hits the ice is 4 revolutions. I agree that he had an early catch and agree that it would have gotten negative GOE, but it would likely still be graded as 4Tw. I guess it's the same case as saying if Browning really landed the first quad, considering the turnout.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Just because S/S did not win the Pairs event does not mean the double standard isn't there. If the Russians weren't there or say, have to withdraw due to an accident, somehow that should affect the legitimacy of S/S placement given that they already skated? This made no sense.
    Exactly. The legitimacy isn't over the medal placement, it's the placement over D/R and M-T/M in the FS. Regardless of whether we're talking about the top 3 or the bottom 3, all skaters should be judged to the same standard (ideal thinking, I know, but that should still be strived for).

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    As you say, Arakawa would have had the edge in terms of jumps, partly because Michelle had lost training time to the stress fracture and didn't have the triple-triple. Fair enough. On those terms, I wouldn't have minded Arakawa beating Michelle for the gold. I did mind Tara beating her because her overall style was so meatless compared to Michelle's.
    Yeah, but Arakawa didn't bring out the 3-3 anyways in her Olympics (not that many did). I would have still placed Tara over both of them, since I prefer a more technically demanding program. And even though Tara skated like a child, it's because she is one. What's the point of her even competing if she should be placed second, even with higher technical content, just because she skates the way she is?

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    I was being a tad hyperbolic. Of course, Shizuka would have won the bronze in 98, 02, and maybe 10. The thing is I'm not going off of what Shizuka was capable of, but what Shizuka put out on the ice. It was nice and she has some amazing highlights, but it wasn't exciting, for me.

    2002 is maybe the closest thing I could see to her winning the gold. She's not beating Tara or Michelle in 1998, also, Sarah's 3-3s weren't as under-rotated as everyone thinks... they were NOT double downgrade URs. She would have been dinged on the flutz. Also, I think Sarah could have done well with the spins in CoP, she had the flexibility.

  12. #87
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    I thought her LP was the best Turandot ever.
    Although...one might mention Shen and Zhao, 2003 Worlds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    I agree that in any era Shizuka at her best would do pretty spectacularly.

    In 1998, though, I have to disagree just to say that Michelle didn't skate like a little girl at that time. (I know I'm biased, but she did have a mature style, and she completed her moves beautifully and indisputably expressed the music.) Tara certainly skated like a child, albeit a very talented one. Whether Shizuka at her best would have beaten Michelle at that Olympics would not have depended on the comparative maturity of the two skaters.

    As you say, Arakawa would have had the edge in terms of jumps, partly because Michelle had lost training time to the stress fracture and didn't have the triple-triple. Fair enough. On those terms, I wouldn't have minded Arakawa beating Michelle for the gold. I did mind Tara beating her because her overall style was so meatless compared to Michelle's.
    Michelle was 17 at the 1998 Olympics---not a little girl at all, and Shizuka was 16. Tara won, Michelle was 2nd, and Shizuka was 13th.

    Shizuka Arakawa competed in the GP in the same timeframe as Michelle Kwan, from 1997 through 2002. During that time, Arakawa won just one medal, a bronze, at NHK 2002.

    Shizuka didn't come into her own until she was into her 20s, so it's useless to compare her to Kwan. Shizuka was actually more like the Maria Butyrskaya of Japan.

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    I agree Shizuka was the Butyrskaya of Japan, but far more talented than Maria. Maria's one World title is seen as a fluke or accident of sorts, where she got lucky to have her only clean performances ever in a year it was a super weak transition year with everyone either retired, slumping or out of Worlds, or not on the scene yet, with no other threats other than Kwan (who fell). She had a shot to defend her title the following year after winning the short, to most peoples amazement as nobody considered her winning again before the event began, but blew that with a typically abysmal long program, and that was it for her. Shizuka won both her major titles with excellent performances, and the feeling on her is she had huge talent but was not able or willing to commit enough time to skating sooner, and if she had could have even been on top earlier than she was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Michelle was 17 at the 1998 Olympics---not a little girl at all, and Shizuka was 16. Tara won, Michelle was 2nd, and Shizuka was 13th.

    Shizuka Arakawa competed in the GP in the same timeframe as Michelle Kwan, from 1997 through 2002. During that time, Arakawa won just one medal, a bronze, at NHK 2002.

    Shizuka didn't come into her own until she was into her 20s, so it's useless to compare her to Kwan. Shizuka was actually more like the Maria Butyrskaya of Japan.
    But we're not comparing 16yo Shizuka to 17yo Michelle. We're comparing 24yo Shizuka to 17yo Michelle. The difference in presentation is there. Shizuka is a lady skater, Michelle is a child prodigy. No matter how prodigious you are, when you skate next to a lady, you still look like a child. I'm not trying to put Michelle down, because she presented the best programs in 1998.

    Someone said Shizuka in 2006 wouldn't medal in 1998. That's just ridiculous.

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