Why doesn't anyone like pairs skating any more? | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Why doesn't anyone like pairs skating any more?

meem

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 24, 2006
I was surprised to see this thread - thought it was just me no longer caring if I missed pairs in a competition. Pairs today forces the skaters to do the jumps that singles have to do which IMO isn't quite fair. They already have a huge challenge trying to "skate as one" so why should they also have to do two sets of side by side (perfectly timed of course) triples? Gone are the gorgeous Ina Bauers which used to be such a thrill to see. In the past few years I've switched my preference to ice dance now that this discipline has become more interesting to me (with the exception of the overuse of gymnastic lifts).
 

GF2445

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 7, 2012
They should make one of the lifts a 'choreographed' pair lift and it should only be rated for the quality (GOE only). Fixed base elements are good because it removes the whole thing about levels. If they can do it, pairs would look a little more beautiful.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Unfortunately, if you check out how the choreo lift works in dance, you find that they become as complex as the regular lifts :(
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Oddly, what has happened in Pairs is that it's become almost like the CD in dance. All the top pairs use the same moves, so you see the same elements executed over and over again, because those are the ones with the highest point value. There are few surprises and a fair number of stumbles and bumbles, even from the best teams.

The end result is that Pairs competitions are, well, boring.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Speaking only for myself, in contradiction to the premise of this thread which does not speak for me, pairs was always the discipline I was least interested in. It seemed to me that it was almost always all about the tricks, and a lot of those tricks in the 1980s and 90s tended to be about holding the same position for a long a time without nuance or variation (simple lifts, death spirals, etc.) so they tended to put me to sleep.

There were a few pairs who had personality and dynamic variation, so I tended to enjoy those

E.g., errors aside, I certainly enjoyed Mishkutionok/Dmitriev more than Gordeeva/Grinkov in 1994, even though I understood why G/G were technically better overall and why they won.

So the change in judging system didn't suddenly make me love a discipline that had previously bored me, nor did it turn me off further. It probably made me slightly more interested, because I was curious at first about how each team would use variations to gain more points in their elements, some of which were new and creative. Then things settled down as most teams found the same most efficient ways to gain levels and variations that used to be original now became standard, while others remained so rare we hardly ever see them.

There are still only a few teams that catch my attention in terms of point of view and choreography. Savchenko/Szolkowy have been my favorites for a number of years for that reason.
 

FSGMT

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
Oddly, what has happened in Pairs is that it's become almost like the CD in dance. All the top pairs use the same moves, so you see the same elements executed over and over again, because those are the ones with the highest point value. There are few surprises and a fair number of stumbles and bumbles, even from the best teams.

The end result is that Pairs competitions are, well, boring.
:clap: (And, I liked the CD, but I still get bored with today's Pairs competitions!)
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I personally love pairs now. I was so sick of teams doing the requisite elements layout (everyone did a SBS 3T, and throw salchow/loop, and basic spins and lifts). Throws/twists are a lot more ambitious and huge, SBS jumps are harder, SBS spins are harder wotj partners actually staying in unison more than in the past, lifts are actually being more intricate (T/M's lifts in 2006 Olympics were boring as heck, especially compared to V/T's lifts at Worlds). Some moves I dislike like the slow death spirals trying to get a level 4 with extra rotations or lifts where there's a prolonged hold just to get a level.

I think the passion and partner chemistry is diminished because of the added elements difficulty but I'm okay with that. As I always say, the sport needs to evolve difficulty-wise, and if I want to see skaters with less difficulty and better classic pairs unison/artistry, I can always rewatch past videos of Gord/Grin, Mish/Dim, etc. But I'd rather see progressive difficulty and higher and harder (and more innovative) elements -- that, to me, makes for exciting pairs skating.

I disagree that the top pairs skaters all have the same moves... they have different throws, different SBS jumps, different spins, different lifts. Take a look at the top 3 from this past Worlds SP...

V/T: throw 3L, SBS 3S
D/R: throw 3Z, SBS 3Z
S/S: throw 3F, SBS 3T
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
^ I can't agree with the part about staying in unison. Here are Tai Babilonia and Randy Gardner in 1979.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63cmIfO-u6k

Comparing that to present day performances, it is no wonder that the popularity of pairs skating has pretty much hit bottom among the general public.

About the "harder is better" notion, to each his own, I guess. To me, "better is better." The IJS rewards attempts at difficult tricks, even if those attempts are unsuccessful. This is really quite a departure from the sporting ideal. In basketball, there is a saying among the players, "ball don't lie." Figure skating needs an "ice don't lie" policy.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Lifts and throws may vary in difficulty, but that doesn't make them look better or more interesting to the viewer, especially if they are barely or awkwardly landed. I'd rather see an easier throw landed with great flowout than a really difficult one landed forward and jerkily. I feel the same way about jumps.

I'm aware that Duhamel/Radford do harder jumps and throws, but their landings are often barely held, and their overall skating doesn't have the elegance of the Germans, or the grace of Bazarova and Larionov.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
^ I can't agree with the part about staying in unison. Here are Tai Babilonia and Randy Gardner in 1979.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63cmIfO-u6k

Comparing that to present day performances, it is no wonder that the popularity of pairs skating has pretty much hit bottom among the general public.

/QUOTE]

Thanks so much, Math! How wonderful to see this again. One thing that always strikes me with Tai and Randy (and with Nicks's other American pair of that time, JoJo Starbuck and Ken Shelley) is how tall the lady is. I know that lifts are much more demanding nowadays, so the height differential has to be as great as possible, but even then, Randy had to hold Tai overhead with one hand. He really is an unsung hero of male partnering. He's about 5 foot 8 or 9, I seem to recall. He must be so phenomenally strong.

I love and always have loved their spread-eagle/Ina Bauer combinations. Once they performed a pas de quatre with Starbuck and Shelley, and the four of them did a group Ina Bauer, lined up in a beautiful backbend column.
 

meem

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 24, 2006
^I'd love to have seen this (pas de quatre with S&S)! Just enjoyed watching Tai and Randy's '79 LP (thanks, Mathman). They were the skaters who turned me into a figure skating fan. That spread-eagle/Ina Bauer combo is gorgeous. Loved their pair spin (and I've loathed pair spins for the past 10 or more years). Yeah, sure, the sport has to advance but when you look at pairs skating from back in the day, you can see how empty it has become in between the big moves IMO. I've now switched over to ice dancing for beauty, sport and excitement in competitive skating.



I love and always have loved their spread-eagle/Ina Bauer combinations. Once they performed a pas de quatre with Starbuck and Shelley, and the four of them did a group Ina Bauer, lined up in a beautiful backbend column.[/QUOTE]
 

bramweld

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
Berton and Hotarek could be quite compelling if they tightened up their technical skills. I find them the most charming of all the pairs skating now. S/S can also be quite entertaining; really liked Pina. I hope they both come out with really good programs this season. Their may be other lovely pairs I'm forgetting, but these two immediately spring to mind.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Lifts and throws may vary in difficulty, but that doesn't make them look better or more interesting to the viewer, especially if they are barely or awkwardly landed. I'd rather see an easier throw landed with great flowout than a really difficult one landed forward and jerkily. I feel the same way about jumps.

I'm aware that Duhamel/Radford do harder jumps and throws, but their landings are often barely held, and their overall skating doesn't have the elegance of the Germans, or the grace of Bazarova and Larionov.

To be fair, their technical content is really high. I would put D/R above Bazarova/Larionov personally... I find them to be a mismatched and rather awkward couple to watch, even if they are consistent. Unless you meant Volosozhar/Trankov who are certainly better than D/R. I don't think D/R's difficulty is detrimental to their overall artistry... they're still developing, and in order to keep up with the best in the World, they have to push the technical envelope if their artistry isn't as good as other teams. And difficulty should be rewarded.. plenty of people could have said "I'm aware that Stojko does quads, but his programs and overall skating is lacking." and if he was held back because of it, the men's event likely wouldn't have flourished to what it is today.

Here's the thing: we've seen elegant skates from pairs in the past with lower difficulty than today, and that has won World and Olympic titles. You kind of wonder what else has yet to be seen and if skaters aren't pushing the technical envelope then really every performance is kind of something we've already seen before. And if you'd rather see easier throws, then we could go back to the days of a throw 2A and a throw 3S; or SBS 2As and 2F's -- it would be clean and watchable and it probably doesn't look less interesting to the viewer (in fact a program can be way more seamless and 'watchable' with easier elements that require less setup or have less risk). But it's totally been there, done that. I know everyone loves their classic pairs skaters, but I think skaters need to challenge themselves, even if it comes at the expense of having more of a performance (again, save it for the exhibitions).

I'm curious as to what you're referring to as the "anymore" period when people liked pairs skating more? Gordeeva/Grinkov? Shen/Zhao?
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Country
United-States
I find it fascinating that when people are discussing their favorite pairs, we're hearing names like Protopopov, Rodnina, G/G, B/G, and so forth.

I don't disagree with any of those selections. However, they are 20 to 50 years in the past.

Does anyone think that the pairs from today will be looked at with the same reverence 30 years in the future?

I don't. They're just not magical or memorable. I don't know if it's just a lull in the discipline or if CoP has caused this... or what. But I think it's an indication that pairs is broken.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009

Oh, you found it! Isn't it an astonishing performance?

Starbuck and Shelley aren't as well remembered these days, but they have a tremendous style and did very well for the U.S., winning one World bronze. This was at a time when only Russian or East German pairs got any respect from judges.


TontoK, don't you think that Savchenko/Szolkowy will be remembered? They're very elegant and innovative.

To be sure, I doubt that any of the current American pairs will be remembered. They don't have any standout characteristics. Though I was very fond of Evora/Ladwig, they probably didn't make enough of an impact internationally to make it onto the list of immortals.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I think skaters like S/S and S/Z will certainly be remembered 30 years from now. S/S are one of the most experimental pairs teams who did interesting programs and didn't just go with the requisite classical pieces. Shen and Zhao turned throws into throws (same goes with the other Chinese teams P/T and Z/Z). People never really gasped at throws or twists until they came along.

Everyone seems to be caught up with competitive skating no longer looking crisp, and neat, and tidy, and error-free with minimal risk, but to me, actually incorporating difficulty actually makes it worth watching and differentiates it from exhibitions. From a spectator standpoint, obviously casual viewers won't be able to appreciate a 3Z over a 3T (they'll just see two landed jumps), or distinguish a 3F throw instead of the usual 2A/3S/3L, but from those who can tell, that's exciting, seeing pairs push themselves. I don't think you would see nearly as many 3F, 3Z, 3A, 4S throw attempts, or the Zhang's 2A+3T, or D/R's SBS 3Z, or the Germans' throw 3A if not for IJS being introduced and actually rewarding difficulty.... teams would just settle for throw 3S/3L, SBS 3T or SBS 3S, lifts with typical positions/difficulty, and SBS spins with 6 rotations and two positions, and a line of basic footwork down the ice (yawn). Skating would look exactly how it did in the 90s.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
For me, COP has killed the romanticism of pairs skating. The beautiful moves of the past have been replaced with ugly catch-foot positions, and the programs require far too much intricacy now that the skaters aren't able to execute beautiful, flowy moves. It's sad because there's so much of a sameness to all the programs (i.e. how many different ways can you do a catch foot) that you don't have the variety of styles like GG vs MD vs the Canadians at the 1994 Olys
 
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