Do you think figure skating is a campy sport? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Do you think figure skating is a campy sport?

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avatar credit: @miyan5605
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Feb 27, 2012
Campy: definition... amusing because it is obviously intended to be strange or shocking and seems to be ridiculing itself:
No, I see nothing in serious competition like that. Shows, yes...Mr. Weir and Plushy ( doing a program as a baby) are campy....
Someone who's parents spent $100,000 and more on them so they can practice late at night or early in the morning, and compete till they climb the ladder or injure themselves....campy? No. The Old Batman TV series was campy.....figure skating is blood, sweat and tears.....and hopefully some joy.

:agree:

CAMP something that provides sophisticated, knowing amusement, as by virtue of its being artlessly mannered or stylized, self-consciously artificial and extravagant, or teasingly ingenuous and sentimental.

Sincere (not snarky or sarcastic) comment on the continual evolution of the English language: seems that "camp" and "campy" are good examples of words whose definitions are not written in stone. I'm not surprised to see "knowing" above. But never would have expected "sophisticated" to show up in a definition of "camp"; they seem incongruous to me, so going forward, I will be keeping my eyes and ears open for the mash-up of the two in current usage. :popcorn:
 

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!
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Jan 23, 2004
Well you would have to separate camp from kitsch. And you could go one step further and separate kistch from, as a friend of mine would call it, too-tacky-for-words. Probably the definitive essay on camp is Susan Sontag's "Notes on Camp." Her first note (they are numbered in the essay) states, "To start very generally: Camp is a certain mode of aestheticism. It is one way of seeing the world as an aesthetic phenomenon. That way, the way of Camp, is not in terms of beauty, but in terms of the degree of artifice, of stylization." She elaborates this throughout the essay (such as in note 10: "Camp sees everything in quotation marks. It's not a lamp, but a "lamp"; not a woman, but a "woman." To perceive Camp in objects and persons is to understand Being-as-Playing-a-Role. It is the farthest extension, in sensibility, of the metaphor of life as theater.").

Kitsch though, is not necessarily about artifice as art (or should I say "art"?). Kitsch deals more with matters of taste, of quality. Bad art can be camp--but then again so can good art (Sontag lists the ballet "Swan Lake" in the canon of Camp). Kitsch is always bad art. But kitsch also tends to have an emotional component as well: you know something is bad, of inferior quality, but there is something about it that pleases you anyway (hmmm, I can think of a number of FS programs that fall under that definition).

Tackiness on the other hand, is something that not only lacks a certain quality, but fails the good taste test.

Carmen on ice is camp.
Some consider Evan Lysacek's Carmen program to be kitsch.
Some Carmen costumes are just tacky.

^ Thank you for that great post! Here is the essay.

http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/irvinem/theory/sontag-notesoncamp-1964.html

To me, camp has a certain "it's so bad it's good" implication. I never feel that way about a competitive skating performance. (If it's bad, it's bad. ;) )

:thumbsup:
 

gkelly

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Joined
Jul 26, 2003

Thanks for the link, and to WeakAnkles for citing the essay.

I think we could approach the question either from the creator's (skater's and choreographer's) point of view or from the audience's.

Are there examples of skating programs in which the skater's and choreographer's intention was to showcase artifice, to put metaphorical quotation marks around the performance?
If so, then I think we could say that those programs are examples of intentional camp.

I can think of some examples of show programs that would meet that criterion, not so much competitive programs. But of course I can't really read the skaters' minds. Maybe some are more attuned to irony than I would expect.


I think there are plenty of examples of skating programs, choreography, costumes, kiss-and-cry drama, etc., which are intended completely earnestly, but which viewers with a more sophisticated sensibility can't help seeing as kitsch. And yet, if the viewers also enjoy the skating on its own merits and enjoy it even more because of the disconnect between appealing athleticism and tacky packaging, then their enjoyment of skating may be rooted in appreciation of it as camp.

But in many cases the skaters would be offended that these viewers see (and enjoy) tackiness where they were aiming for and hoped they achieved beauty.
 

Robeye

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Are there examples of skating programs in which the skater's and choreographer's intention was to showcase artifice, to put metaphorical quotation marks around the performance?
If so, then I think we could say that those programs are examples of intentional camp.

I can think of some examples of show programs that would meet that criterion, not so much competitive programs. But of course I can't really read the skaters' minds. Maybe some are more attuned to irony than I would expect.
A great illustration of "camp" is Yuna's Bond Girl. Which would make it second-generation camp, since the Bond movies themselves were deliberately and iconically camp. Which also goes to show that campiness may be a recessive trait, as the books by Ian Fleming were decidedly not camp (having read quite a few of them when I was younger and less discriminating, I would say the novels were one's humorless great-uncle's fantasy of being a "hep cat").
 

WeakAnkles

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Aug 1, 2011
A great illustration of "camp" is Yuna's Bond Girl. Which would make it second-generation camp, since the Bond movies themselves were deliberately and iconically camp. Which also goes to show that campiness may be a recessive trait, as the books by Ian Fleming were decidedly not camp (having read quite a few of them when I was younger and less discriminating, I would say the novels were one's humorless great-uncle's fantasy of being a "hep cat").

That's an interesting distinction to make. Here's another example: Jacqueline Susann's Valley of the Dolls as a novel isn't camp--it's kitsch. But the movie may be the high watermark of Hollywood Camp. It's funny how moving something from one type of art/performance to another can change its camp/kitsch quality.

I was just thinking one might consider "tacky" as kitsch without the affection. ;)

By the way, Serious Business, I love your post. You're right--Charlie White doesn't have a camp bone in his body (he may be the most Heterosexual Man In America). Barbara Fusar-Poli may be the all-time Ice Dance Camp Empress. You would think "Pasha" Grishuk would easily win that title, but she represents a strange case in ice dance, where her "real life" is far far more High Camp than her ice dancing performances...
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Are there examples of skating programs in which the skater's and choreographer's intention was to showcase artifice, to put metaphorical quotation marks around the performance?

If so, then I think we could say that those programs are examples of intentional camp.

I can think of some examples of show programs that would meet that criterion, not so much competitive programs.

Ryan Bradley's Mozart LP?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYTc-f_ZxeQ
 

Poodlepal

On the Ice
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Jan 14, 2010
I see very little humor or lightness in figure skating in the last few years, whether it's the new judging criteria or just the way the trend is going. Some of the funnier touches (unintentional or not) are gone. You don't see men dressed like pianos playing themselves (Alexei Y), or wearing swan puppets or bride/groom outfits (Johnny) or dying on the ice (ice dancers of the late 80s). I can't see a drag queen pretending to be any of the current crop of skaters. What's there to make fun of, the bun? The simple, sparkly, outfit?
 

sather

Rinkside
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Dec 15, 2012
As far as we follow the definition of Susan Sontag, I think it involves very subjective points of view. All kinds of shows that include emotional expression like musical or movies exaggerate at a certain point but when it exaggerates it too much and fails to make people feel deeply into it but is still so hilarious and adorable at the same time, it becomes camp. It's something that is sooooo serious that you cannot take it seriously. However people have different boundaries between artistic expression and campy or crappy work of art. For example, Ando Miki's 2010 Olympics LP is a little bit camp to me but it is not for some people. It doesn't mean I don't appreciate it as much as the others do but it only means that I appreciate it in a different way. For me, to be camp, the work has to be too much and ridiculous at some point but I may fill it adorable, lovely, humorous, or even cool mainly because I have affections to it.

I usually don't take competitive skating as camp because although they are exaggerated, they are still serious enough for me but some people might feel it that way. Costumes? probably camp. Lambiel's Four seasons' costume is definitely camp. When it comes to exhibition, there's much more to consider as camp.

By the way, I loooooove the Susan Sontag's essay. I even wrote a paper on camp in the last semester. Camp is such a fascinating view of art. :cool:

ETA. As I think about it more and more, I find a lot of them campy but I haven't realized it ! Oh gosh, it is a campy sports. :biggrin:
 

Serious Business

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Serious Business [...] You're right--Charlie White doesn't have a camp bone in his body (he may be the most Heterosexual Man In America).

Camp did start out in (and still remains part of) gay culture. But the concept has long since generalized beyond that. So while Charlie White is allegedly heterosexual, I would not attribute his lack of affectations (if one is feeling charitable) or his inability to perform (if one is not) to his sexuality. Scott Hamilton sure lived up to the first three letters of his last name, but he's straight. Matt Savoie, whose style was extremely subtle and subdued, married a guy last year.

There is an element of camp that involves tweaking gender stereotypes. After all, drag queens are the very definition of camp. But well, there are plenty of straight drag queens (really). Even in skating, we have Evgeni Plushenko, who did skate as a woman quite a few times, who is quite heterosexual. Plushenko, in fact, may be the campiest men's single skater in the last decade.

Which brings me to Johnny Weir. Now some have cited him as a study in camp. And he has skated to some very, very flamboyant programs. But at the same time, he did just as many, if not more programs that are downright introverted. This was especially true earlier on in his career. I would even say that Weir is more comfortable doing those lyrical, navel-gazing pieces competitively than when he has to vamp it up.

I usually don't take competitive skating as camp because although they are exaggerated, they are still serious enough for me but some people might feel it that way. Costumes? probably camp. Lambiel's Four seasons' costume is definitely camp.

[...]

As I think about it more and more, I find a lot of them campy but I haven't realized it ! Oh gosh, it is a campy sports. :biggrin:

At least you're coming around! It seems like it's incredibly difficult for most people who are very vested in this sport, who know exactly how much one wrong edge will cost, and how much blood and sweat went into each performance, to see figure skating as camp. After all, camp is ridiculous. And to them, figure skating is, well, serious business. However, from the perspective of the mainstream and most people, figure skating is undeniably camp. And I think, even for skaters and fans, the sport is campy as all get out if they take a step back.

Many things that are considered camp are only camp from the outside. There's the camp that the creators took very seriously, but no one else can (like the movie Showgirls). And there's the misunderstood camp. A sport that's in a similar boat to figure skating, synchronized swimming, is the butt of many jokes, and frequently brought up as the one sport people want to see cut from the Olympics. But synchronized swimming is actually one of the most difficult and strenuous aquatic sports.

The problem is that camp still carries negative connotations. Camp is frivolous. Surely, if we love something, it can't be camp. But it can! Drag queens spend hours practicing their act, undergo painful stuffing, tucking and eyebrow-plucking, but none of them will deny that what they're doing is pure camp.

Figure skating cannot take itself too seriously. It needs camp. In some ways, it has gone a bit overboard with deemphasizing it. Due to guidelines and instructions current judges are getting from the ISU, it seems pretty darn clear to me that the theatrical, emotive and performance aspects of the program component scoring guidelines are mostly ignored. Skating skills dictate the rest of the PCS. And many, many performances that are truly and magnificently performances get a shoddy PCS. As a result of this pruning, competitive skating is evolving into a less and less campy sport. This makes it a more boring sport for not just the hardcore skate fans, but casual audiences. Sure, when figure skating is campy, casual audiences may not appreciate how difficult it is because it looks fun. But at least then it's fun.
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
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Javier Fernandez's Let's Get Physical exhibition program.

Agree that this Fernandez exhibition is intentional camp.

And BTW, Charlie White has shown at least once (also in an exhibition) that he is not immune to camp. Sorry, my memory of the program is is very fuzzy, but he was wearing big eyeglasses with thick black rims and an intentionally geeky outfit. Again, I don't remember for sure, but the basic idea seemed to be that White's character appeared at first to be an awkward, self-conscious dork, but then transformed into a graceful, confident dancer.
Have not re-watched the program, but these vids show his over-the-top costuming:
 

dorispulaski

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I don't feel qualified to comment on what is camp or not:

I seek advice. Which of the following are camp:

Fusarl-Poli & Margaglio's 2001 World ice dance FD (they won. I detest this dance. Does that mean for me, it's not camp, despite Barbara being the Queen of Camp?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTiw6gYluY0

Krylova & Ovsiannakov's Carmen 1998 FD (they won. I love this dance, and I think it is probably camp. Dick Button emphatically did not love it, though.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oFAnymw0YU

Virtue & Moir's 2013 FD Carmen (V&M intend this to be high art, and are dressed as unspangly as possible to show that)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oFAnymw0YU

Zhiganshina & Gaszi's Zombies FD 2013 (I don't care what this is; I love it anyway, but I'd be curious whether it is kitsch or camp.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yvoCVYNMDU

And here's the Charlie White exhibition with the suspenders & glasses
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxHPbMvhBI0
 

plushyfan

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Even in skating, we have Evgeni Plushenko, who did skate as a woman quite a few times, who is quite heterosexual. Plushenko, in fact, may be the campiest men's single skater in the last decade.

In this forum I read a lot of strange and false things on Plushy but , this is the most ridiculous. :laugh: Some people say he isn't an artistry skater, after you say, he is a campy skater..:rolleye:I have never seen inartistic gay skater. :no: OMG! For me he is one of the most masculine skater today. :love: Can you tell me wich programs were campy? The Godfather? :bang: Tango de Roxanne in last year??, Or I don't know what is the campy? What does that mean? campy=poofy? or is there another meaning?
 

Bluebonnet

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Aug 18, 2010
I actually have never seen any skater who is totally inartistic, gay or not gay. Some skaters are just less artistic than others. Someone who is inartistic will not go into figure skating in the first place.
 

whitebamboo

On the Ice
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Dec 7, 2012
Can you tell me wich programs were campy? The Godfather? :bang: Tango de Roxanne in last year??, Or I don't know what is the campy? What does that mean? campy=poofy? or is there another meaning?


Perhaps it's Assisai...;)

I don't know what "campy" means, either, at least from this thread. It seems that different people are using the word in completely different ways. Not conforming to (stereotypical) gender roles on ice? Sequins and feathers? Not to be taken seriously? Not "lyrical"? Not "subtle"? Dramatic? Ironic? Tasteless? "So bad it's good"?

With Plushy, I for myself don't agree that he is a "campy" skater in general (using whatever definition of "campy" listed above), because to me, he's not so easily categorized. I also suspect there is quite a strong cultural component when it comes to what each viewer may or may not consider "campy". Plushenko is capable of programs that fit certain definitions of (intentionally and humorously) "campy", if one must use that word--as he said once, an artist "should not always be in the image of a prince". Maybe Sex Bomb fits. Maybe Assisai. Or another example, I suspect many North American would see Prisoner as campy, but to me, it isn't at all.

(BTW, since I can never prevent myself from going on and on about his Tango Roxanne, actually I've personally always seen quite a bit that's somewhat gender-bending, or more precisely fluid, in it (which is not to say that it isn't "masculine" in a different sense), yet it was certainly not "drag", and to my own mind, it was absolutely not campy...)
 

gkelly

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Jul 26, 2003
I actually have never seen any skater who is totally inartistic, gay or not gay. Some skaters are just less artistic than others. Someone who is inartistic will not go into figure skating in the first place.

That's not really true. Some skaters get into it because they like the gliding or the jumping and don't care about what it looks like.

In the days of school figures, some very shy skaters did well at that part but not so well in freeskating.

However, if they want to compete successfully they will need to start caring. So by the time you see them in high-level competition, you will see some presentation skills.
 

Bluebonnet

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Aug 18, 2010
That's not really true. Some skaters get into it because they like the gliding or the jumping and don't care about what it looks like.

In the days of school figures, some very shy skaters did well at that part but not so well in freeskating.

However, if they want to compete successfully they will need to start caring. So by the time you see them in high-level competition, you will see some presentation skills.

Actually, I think, gliding itself in figure skating level is artistic already, unlike the gliding in ice hockey and speed skating.
 

plushyfan

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You probably have, but you didn't know they were gay. ;)

:laugh: Yes, probably...But generally that skater, who is unquestionable artistry skaters in every FS fan's eyes, are gays. Johnny, Jeremy, John Curry etc.
 
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