Yes!!! Leonova is totally Faye Dunaway from Mommie Dearest. Camp heaven!!!
Originally Posted by Serious Business
Obviously you have no intelligence, or otherwise you would not have started this thread,this thread should be closed......
Originally Posted by bump
I take it you like to hold a can of beer and watch a macho sport....
Gotta Have Music
To answer the question, no!
I take it we are talking about competitive skating and not show skating.
Certain skaters show a lot of theater in their competitive programs and that is a good thing for me as it draws me into
the performance aspect much more that some one skating by the numbers and I tend to find those performances much more enjoyable,
whether it is a winning performance or not it does not matter to me.
Well you would have to separate camp from kitsch. And you could go one step further and separate kistch from, as a friend of mine would call it, too-tacky-for-words. Probably the definitive essay on camp is Susan Sontag's "Notes on Camp." Her first note (they are numbered in the essay) states, "To start very generally: Camp is a certain mode of aestheticism. It is one way of seeing the world as an aesthetic phenomenon. That way, the way of Camp, is not in terms of beauty, but in terms of the degree of artifice, of stylization." She elaborates this throughout the essay (such as in note 10: "Camp sees everything in quotation marks. It's not a lamp, but a "lamp"; not a woman, but a "woman." To perceive Camp in objects and persons is to understand Being-as-Playing-a-Role. It is the farthest extension, in sensibility, of the metaphor of life as theater.").
Kitsch though, is not necessarily about artifice as art (or should I say "art"?). Kitsch deals more with matters of taste, of quality. Bad art can be camp--but then again so can good art (Sontag lists the ballet "Swan Lake" in the canon of Camp). Kitsch is always bad art. But kitsch also tends to have an emotional component as well: you know something is bad, of inferior quality, but there is something about it that pleases you anyway (hmmm, I can think of a number of FS programs that fall under that definition).
Tackiness on the other hand, is something that not only lacks a certain quality, but fails the good taste test.
Carmen on ice is camp.
Some consider Evan Lysacek's Carmen program to be kitsch.
Some Carmen costumes are just tacky.
^ Thank you for that great post! Here is the essay.
To me, camp has a certain "it's so bad it's good" implication. I never feel that way about a competitive skating performance. (If it's bad, it's bad. )
Originally Posted by CoyoteChris
Sincere (not snarky or sarcastic) comment on the continual evolution of the English language: seems that "camp" and "campy" are good examples of words whose definitions are not written in stone. I'm not surprised to see "knowing" above. But never would have expected "sophisticated" to show up in a definition of "camp"; they seem incongruous to me, so going forward, I will be keeping my eyes and ears open for the mash-up of the two in current usage.
Originally Posted by centerpt1
Originally Posted by WeakAnkles
Originally Posted by Mathman
Thanks for the link, and to WeakAnkles for citing the essay.
Originally Posted by Mathman
I think we could approach the question either from the creator's (skater's and choreographer's) point of view or from the audience's.
Are there examples of skating programs in which the skater's and choreographer's intention was to showcase artifice, to put metaphorical quotation marks around the performance?
If so, then I think we could say that those programs are examples of intentional camp.
I can think of some examples of show programs that would meet that criterion, not so much competitive programs. But of course I can't really read the skaters' minds. Maybe some are more attuned to irony than I would expect.
I think there are plenty of examples of skating programs, choreography, costumes, kiss-and-cry drama, etc., which are intended completely earnestly, but which viewers with a more sophisticated sensibility can't help seeing as kitsch. And yet, if the viewers also enjoy the skating on its own merits and enjoy it even more because of the disconnect between appealing athleticism and tacky packaging, then their enjoyment of skating may be rooted in appreciation of it as camp.
But in many cases the skaters would be offended that these viewers see (and enjoy) tackiness where they were aiming for and hoped they achieved beauty.
A great illustration of "camp" is Yuna's Bond Girl. Which would make it second-generation camp, since the Bond movies themselves were deliberately and iconically camp. Which also goes to show that campiness may be a recessive trait, as the books by Ian Fleming were decidedly not camp (having read quite a few of them when I was younger and less discriminating, I would say the novels were one's humorless great-uncle's fantasy of being a "hep cat").
Originally Posted by gkelly
That's an interesting distinction to make. Here's another example: Jacqueline Susann's Valley of the Dolls as a novel isn't camp--it's kitsch. But the movie may be the high watermark of Hollywood Camp. It's funny how moving something from one type of art/performance to another can change its camp/kitsch quality.
Originally Posted by Robeye
I was just thinking one might consider "tacky" as kitsch without the affection.
By the way, Serious Business, I love your post. You're right--Charlie White doesn't have a camp bone in his body (he may be the most Heterosexual Man In America). Barbara Fusar-Poli may be the all-time Ice Dance Camp Empress. You would think "Pasha" Grishuk would easily win that title, but she represents a strange case in ice dance, where her "real life" is far far more High Camp than her ice dancing performances...
Ryan Bradley's Mozart LP?
Originally Posted by gkelly
Javier Fernandez's Let's Get Physical exhibition program.
I see very little humor or lightness in figure skating in the last few years, whether it's the new judging criteria or just the way the trend is going. Some of the funnier touches (unintentional or not) are gone. You don't see men dressed like pianos playing themselves (Alexei Y), or wearing swan puppets or bride/groom outfits (Johnny) or dying on the ice (ice dancers of the late 80s). I can't see a drag queen pretending to be any of the current crop of skaters. What's there to make fun of, the bun? The simple, sparkly, outfit?
As far as we follow the definition of Susan Sontag, I think it involves very subjective points of view. All kinds of shows that include emotional expression like musical or movies exaggerate at a certain point but when it exaggerates it too much and fails to make people feel deeply into it but is still so hilarious and adorable at the same time, it becomes camp. It's something that is sooooo serious that you cannot take it seriously. However people have different boundaries between artistic expression and campy or crappy work of art. For example, Ando Miki's 2010 Olympics LP is a little bit camp to me but it is not for some people. It doesn't mean I don't appreciate it as much as the others do but it only means that I appreciate it in a different way. For me, to be camp, the work has to be too much and ridiculous at some point but I may fill it adorable, lovely, humorous, or even cool mainly because I have affections to it.
I usually don't take competitive skating as camp because although they are exaggerated, they are still serious enough for me but some people might feel it that way. Costumes? probably camp. Lambiel's Four seasons' costume is definitely camp. When it comes to exhibition, there's much more to consider as camp.
By the way, I loooooove the Susan Sontag's essay. I even wrote a paper on camp in the last semester. Camp is such a fascinating view of art.
ETA. As I think about it more and more, I find a lot of them campy but I haven't realized it ! Oh gosh, it is a campy sports.