Miki Ando | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Miki Ando

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
You have been saying this a lot in your post. This is the thing (And know we cant combine different competitions) But take her short program from the 4cc and long from worlds and you have Mao easily beathing Kostner. I did not bring kim into it. Mao demostrated this season that she can scored over 200, like she did at the 4cc even if her jumps are not 100 percent. So, Carolina and Mao have the same chance for silver

By the way I am not upset, just think you are understimating Mao

I am not a Kostner fan really but Kostner has beaten Mao in every competition they have been in together for over 2 years now. It isnt like she just beat her at Worlds and nowhere else, in fact this past Worlds was one of the only competitions the last 2.5 years they were even close in. I dont think it is a stretch to say Kostner is more favored at this point. Like I said things can easily change, of course Mao a former World Champion could overtake Kostner, and it wouldnt surprse me at all if she does, but she definitely isnt over her right now. You bring in Maos best programs from two seperate competitions, but the thing is Kostner is actually more consistent than Mao now, and less likely to make as many mistakes. Also if you take Kostner from Nationals she would beat the two Mao programs combined you refer to probably (especialy as that Mao LP still had mistakes which Kostner at Nationals did not). Kostner hasnt even had many chances to do her best as she has only started trying the harder jumps again.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Miki beat Mao and Kim TWO YEARS AGO and since then she has dropped out of competitive skating, and she won't be in the GP. JSF will not even send her to International Bs until she competes at Regionals. She has to WIN Nationals to go to Sochi. Sorry, I don't think we'll be seeing Miki in competition again. The deck is stacked against her.
 

minze

Medalist
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
I am not a Kostner fan really but Kostner has beaten Mao in every competition they have been in together for over 2 years now. It isnt like she just beat her at Worlds and nowhere else, in fact this past Worlds was one of the only competitions the last 2.5 years they were even close in. I dont think it is a stretch to say Kostner is more favored at this point. Like I said things can easily change, of course Mao a former World Champion could overtake Kostner, and it wouldnt surprse me at all if she does, but she definitely isnt over her right now. You bring in Maos best programs from two seperate competitions, but the thing is Kostner is actually more consistent than Mao now, and less likely to make as many mistakes. Also if you take Kostner from Nationals she would beat the two Mao programs combined you refer to probably (especialy as that Mao LP still had mistakes which Kostner at Nationals did not). Kostner hasnt even had many chances to do her best as she has only started trying the harder jumps again.

True when Mao was reworking her jumps (but guess fans tend to forget that re-working jumps is the hardest thing a skater can do). I dont want to take any thing from Carolina because she has earned it. I dont use nationals to compare skaters, but if you use 4cc and European championship you certantly can see that they have the same chance for medals. Kostner like Mao has not been able to put two clean programs together, so I dont see the difference. Also remember that Mao has only two chances to try her harder layout this season. Like you said things can change, but to predict medal colors this far ahead ......

At worlds with two mistakes Mao was still able to score higher than Carolina who also make mistakes.
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Carolina was rather lucky to get silver at Worlds this year as her 3-3 in her SP wasn't called an under-rotation. If that call were to be made correctly, Mao would get silver and Carolina bronze at Worlds. So in my mind, Mao with three major mistakes (both 3-axels in SP and FP and 3flip-3loop in FP) actually beat Carolina with three major mistakes (under-rotated and fallen 3tl-3tl in SP, popped 3loop and fallen 3sal in FP). Caro could improve her consistency next season, but Mao is likely to do so as well. I don't think it can be said that Caro was ahead of Mao at Worlds.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
At worlds with two mistakes Mao was still able to score higher than Carolina who also make mistakes.

That was in the FREE SKATE. Mao was 6th after the SP because she two-footed the 3a and URd the 3f in combo. In the FS, Mao (with two URs and a two-footed 3a) beat Carolina (with a singled jump and a fall). IMO, Mao's persistent URs are a bigger liability than Carolina's mistakes.

Carolina DID beat Mao at Worlds, that is a fact. Both skaters were lucky that they got a lenient caller at Worlds. Maybe Carolina's 3/3 could have been UR, but both of Mao's double-footed 3as could have been called UR also, and that would have a MUCH bigger impact on scores.

As for improving by next year, Mao has been URing her jumps for the past three years and she is STILL getting UR calls, especially on the 3f. If she hasn't fixed her UR problem by now, it isn't likely to be fixed ever.
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Sorry, I made a mistake earlier. I forgot that Mao popped her 3loop. So Mao with four major mistakes should, IMO, have beaten Caro with three major mistakes, if only 3tl-3tl had been called correctly as an under-rotation. And Mao nearly beat Caro, in any case, let's not forget. There was only a point difference between them.

I really don't think Caro demonstrated herself to be ahead of Mao at Worlds, even though she got the silver medal.

I think Mao's definitely double-footed 3axel attempts were not under-rotated at all. Even her 3flip which was called an under-rotation was more rotated than Caro's 3toe loop, so there was some selective calls made.
 

minze

Medalist
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
That was in the FREE SKATE. Mao was 6th after the SP because she two-footed the 3a and URd the 3f in combo. In the FS, Mao (with two URs and a two-footed 3a) beat Carolina (with a singled jump and a fall). IMO, Mao's persistent URs are a bigger liability than Carolina's mistakes.

Carolina DID beat Mao at Worlds, that is a fact. Both skaters were lucky that they got a lenient caller at Worlds. Maybe Carolina's 3/3 could have been UR, but both of Mao's double-footed 3as could have been called UR also, and that would have a MUCH bigger impact on scores.

As for improving by next year, Mao has been URing her jumps for the past three years and she is STILL getting UR calls, especially on the 3f. If she hasn't fixed her UR problem by now, it isn't likely to be fixed ever.

Who is disputing the short program. I never said Mao beat Carolina. Really? Did Carolina beat Mao at Worlds by 15 points. And yeah she got UR, the woman re-worked her jumps, her triple axel was ratified (so get over that). How do you know her jumps wont get better? All I am saying is Mao has the same chance for silver or gold that Carolina has

Question: The person who won Gold in the men's competition was he in anyones list of medal contenders: No. So understimating Mao Asada a year before the Olympics is crazy
 

minze

Medalist
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Sorry, I made a mistake earlier. I forgot that Mao popped her 3loop. So Mao with four major mistakes should, IMO, have beaten Caro with three major mistakes, if only 3tl-3tl had been called correctly as an under-rotation. And Mao nearly beat Caro, in any case, let's not forget. There was only a point difference between them.

I really don't think Caro demonstrated herself to be ahead of Mao at Worlds, even though she got the silver medal.

I think Mao's definitely double-footed 3axel attempts were not under-rotated at all. Even her 3flip which was called an under-rotation was more rotated than Caro's 3toe loop, so there was some selective calls made.

THIS. Sorry but if someone has demostrated that you cant count her out is Mao Asada. The women came from 6th place to Bronze by placing second in the Free SKate. So I dont know what will happen but lets way and see instead of declaring a victor 1 year before the olympics
 

Bartek

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
Sorry, I made a mistake earlier. I forgot that Mao popped her 3loop. So Mao with four major mistakes should, IMO, have beaten Caro with three major mistakes, if only 3tl-3tl had been called correctly as an under-rotation. And Mao nearly beat Caro, in any case, let's not forget. There was only a point difference between them.

I really don't think Caro demonstrated herself to be ahead of Mao at Worlds, even though she got the silver medal.

I think Mao's definitely double-footed 3axel attempts were not under-rotated at all. Even her 3flip which was called an under-rotation was more rotated than Caro's 3toe loop, so there was some selective calls made.

ITA! Had Carolina's triple toe been correctly called as an under-rotation Mao would've won with all the mistake she made. Both her triple axels and triple flip from SP were less underrotated than Caro's 3T if you look carefully at the slow-motions. It was simply an unfair call in order to favour Caro over Kim... Mao should've rightfully got the silver.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Poor Miki, she's so far out in people's minds that we're now getting into a Mao vs. Carolina debate....
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Mao's fans have selective memory. Right after the SP, people were surprised Mao got such a high score. She was lucky to be in the final group, quite frankly.
There is no way she should beat Kostner when 2 programs are combined. Even if Kostner's was called for the UR in the SP, Mao should have been called on 3 other jumps.
If the caller was any stricter, maybe Ashley would have won bronze over Mao and Kanako.

The thing is, Kostner is a superior skater in all program components, and Kostner has true lutz, true flip, 3x3. Mao has an unstable 3A and an UR issue. As it stands, Mao is not capable of beating Kostner.
If both improves, Kostner would still come out ahead.

Which is more likely?
Kostner hitting 7 triples vs. Mao hitting 8 triples? I give the former 10% chance and the latter 1% chance. If you were a betting man, you would bet Kostner for silver.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
I do agree still though it is close enough it could go the other way. Mao still could win the silver, and it isnt a lock for Kostner. For that matter I dont think Kim is totally assured the gold, although she is the clear favorite. I also do think there is an outside shot of someone else sneaking on the podium ahead of Kostner and/or Asada, with Asada the most vurnerable to being bumped just due to her incredibly difficult jump layout and the extreme risk of mistakes. I dont think it will be Murakami, Osmond, or Wagner though. If anyone does it would Gold, Li (I think her potential is amazing), or one of the Russians with a home ice boost if they improve alot in the off season. The only thing I believe is impossible if for someone not named Kostner or Asada, anyone who was 4th to 10th at Worlds this year, to finish over Kim. No chance of happening IMO, but anything else could happen, some things more likely than others.
 

minze

Medalist
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Mao's fans have selective memory. Right after the SP, people were surprised Mao got such a high score. She was lucky to be in the final group, quite frankly.
There is no way she should beat Kostner when 2 programs are combined. Even if Kostner's was called for the UR in the SP, Mao should have been called on 3 other jumps.
If the caller was any stricter, maybe Ashley would have won bronze over Mao and Kanako.

The thing is, Kostner is a superior skater in all program components, and Kostner has true lutz, true flip, 3x3. Mao has an unstable 3A and an UR issue. As it stands, Mao is not capable of beating Kostner.
If both improves, Kostner would still come out ahead.

Which is more likely?
Kostner hitting 7 triples vs. Mao hitting 8 triples? I give the former 10% chance and the latter 1% chance. If you were a betting man, you would bet Kostner for silver.

Did you see the free skate. Mao was almost 6 points ahead with two mistakes. No your assessment is not correct Carolina does not come ahead of Mao. No Carolina is not a superior skater.
 

bigsisjiejie

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
I'm a betting person. Yuna, short of shooting herself in the foot big time, will be on the Sochi podium and likely in gold. I'm pretty sure Yuna is not going to shoot herself in the foot and screw up. Carolina will get a medal, Speedy/tech panel/judges will see to that, unlikely to be gold. That leaves one more podium spot. Mao could get it or be off the podium if she makes too many mistakes. My tea leaves say that Miki has "no chance" anymore.

Miki, retire officially with dignity and grace--you had a great career particularly given your artistic limitations. Look up "Fumie Suguri" and beware. Time to explore the next chapter of life, and I think you already know that.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Kostner has tremendous speed, does not flutz or lip, is not a chronic underrotater, and when she makes a mistake she does not let it affect her performance. Asada flutzes and has a UR problem; if she makes a mistake early in the program it definitely affects her concentration and she skates cautiously. In her Worlds FS, when she URd the flip and couldn't do the 3t, that definitely affected her performance, and she didn't recover until the footwork.

Look at the PCS scores: they tell the tale.
70.69 8.96 8.46 8.79 8.93 9.04 Kostner
68.41 8.61 8.21 8.61 8.64 8.68 Asada

Kostner has the superior skating skills, no contest.
 

mary01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
Kostner has tremendous speed, does not flutz or lip, is not a chronic underrotater, and when she makes a mistake she does not let it affect her performance. Asada flutzes and has a UR problem; if she makes a mistake early in the program it definitely affects her concentration and she skates cautiously. In her Worlds FS, when she URd the flip and couldn't do the 3t, that definitely affected her performance, and she didn't recover until the footwork.

Look at the PCS scores: they tell the tale.
70.69 8.96 8.46 8.79 8.93 9.04 Kostner
68.41 8.61 8.21 8.61 8.64 8.68 Asada

Kostner has the superior skating skills, no contest.

How about looking at the judging panel that could also tell the "Tale" or look at the PCS history of Carolina "That" could also tell the tale.
and how about giving any current skater the 8 tripple layout of Asada that includes a 3A and 3-3, and on top of it change the choreography and placement of the elements one month before WC and see how any other skater would complete them. Mao hitting 7 triples is a huge testament to her pure skills and gutsiness and anyone who doesn't acknowledge that is only trying to fool themselves!
 

minze

Medalist
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
How about looking at the judging panel that could also tell the "Tale" or look at the PCS history of Carolina "That" could also tell the tale.
and how about giving any current skater the 8 tripple layout of Asada that includes a 3A and 3-3, and on top of it change the choreography and placement of the elements one month before WC and see how any other skater would complete them. Mao hitting 7 triples is a huge testament to her pure skills and gutsiness and anyone who doesn't acknowledge that is only trying to fool themselves!

THIS. No one is denigying Carolina's skills I am not doing that. But this season Mao showed she can beat her even with out perfect programs. Mao's 4cc performace would have beat Carolina's European without a problem. Mao's world performace was only a few points away from silver. So, I dont see how Kostner is superior.
 

Figga

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 24, 2010
Everyone talks about Caro's superior skating skills but I think her jumps are great too. When done clean, they look amazing :clap:

I'll probably get pelted with rocks for saying this but I think Mao needs better choreography. She's amazing at the fast intricate footwork but I think sometimes less is more, especaily when it really sticks out from the rest of the program.

Kaetlyn Osmond is another who I think is doing a little too much and it shows in the way her jumps look even when landed. but i think she will get much better from here on out
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Did you see the free skate. Mao was almost 6 points ahead with two mistakes. No your assessment is not correct Carolina does not come ahead of Mao. No Carolina is not a superior skater.

Did you? She was 4 points ahead.

Regardless, both made 2 mistakes.
Salchow << and -1 for the fall net her - point.
Popped the loop that got her .5.

Mao's mistakes aren't as severe.
URed the flip still got her 2.5 points.
Edge call on the lutz still got her 5.3 points.

Only children who can't add would say they made equally severe mistakes and Mao came out on top. Carolina is a superior skater in EVERY components. She made 2 serious mistakes that net her almost 0 points. Mao made 2 serious mistakes that net her almost 8 points and still ended up only 4 points ahead. Well, where did the other 4 points go?
 

minze

Medalist
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Did you? She was 4 points ahead.

Regardless, both made 2 mistakes.
Salchow << and -1 for the fall net her - point.
Popped the loop that got her .5.

Mao's mistakes aren't as severe.
URed the flip still got her 2.5 points.
Edge call on the lutz still got her 5.3 points.

Only children who can't add would say they made equally severe mistakes and Mao came out on top. Carolina is a superior skater in EVERY components. She made 2 serious mistakes that net her almost 0 points. Mao made 2 serious mistakes that net her almost 8 points and still ended up only 4 points ahead. Well, where did the other 4 points go?

And only disrespectful people will insult someone just because I dont agree with you I am child that does not know how to add. And stop with your exagerations Carolina supirior in every component. Not interested in discussing with you. You make exagerations with no data to back them up
 
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