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Thread: Who can rival Kim in Sochi: Asada or Kostner?

  1. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheerio2 View Post
    But isn't great height/distance just 1 bullet point for GOE? High jumps don't automatically mean +3 and smaller jumps dont automatically mean 0 GOE. Even if a skater doesn't jump that high, if they have good air position, good flow out, difficult steps leading in, etc. they should still be able to get +GOE.
    What you said is true, to an extent. If you don't have great height and distance, it's very hard to get any flow in/out of the jump. With flow, you can do a lot of creative exit or extension. Physically, they are all related except for the steps preceding the jumps. Sasha should get +1 for that jump. Steps preceding solo jump is required. She would have gotten -3 if she didn't include any steps. There was a break before the jump. If you want to see clear steps/movements right before a jump, here's one. With good extension and flow on the exit, too.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...rdXlFVRc#t=50s

    Tell me what else did she do that warrant + GOE?
    Liza is slow. She skated very small.
    #1 - no
    #2 - no
    #3 - no
    #4 - no
    #5 - no
    #6 - no


    1) Unexpected / creative / difficult entry -
    2) Clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
    3) Varied position in the air / delay in rotation
    4) Great height and/or distance
    5) Superior extension on landing / creative exit
    6) Superior flow in and out (and in-between in jump combinations / sequences)

    As you can see, Caro's jumps get bullets 3-6 even when she telegraphs them. That's why they are +2/+3.
    Liza doesn't, and shouldn't get any GOE.

  2. #167
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    I think height and distance do affect flow, but there are also exceptions to that, so it makes sense that these are separate bullets instead of just one for height and distance. Irina had big jumps, but I felt her jump landings were often clunky and she didn't get much flowout. Shizuka didn't have the biggest jumps but her landings were always so flow-y.

    Your clip of three turns before a loop is certainly clear steps right before, but I haven't seen anyone do a flip from steps without any break before the jump, including Caro. All the top girls now do the flip from much simpler steps with as much of of a break (or more) than what Sasha had in 2002, so I think Sasha definitely exceeded the usual step requirement there.

    I agree that Caro has 4 and 6 on a regular basis, but I wouldn't give her 3 or 5 automatically for every jump.

  3. #168
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    Here are some flips with steps right in front, and the flow in and out was wonderful, too.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...ZgoPpCAI#t=86s
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...8BqVrpro#t=81s

    I agree about Irina. Her landings always come to a complete stop. I think she was generously scored on GOE a lot of the time. A while back, I was comparing Caro and Irina's jumps, and Caro had better GOE even during Irina's reign.

    Shizuka is one of those whose jumps have great flow in and out. She doesn't have the height, but the distance is big. I love her skating skills. Probably the closest to Carolina in that department.

  4. #169
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    That Osmond clip was I didn't realize it was possible to do that! Very impressed.

  5. #170
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    The bullets for positive GOE are only guidelines according to the technical handbook, not hard rules. Each judge can deviate according to their own discretion if they think the executed element warrants it.

    The only hard and fast rules are about falls, UR and edge calls, as well as required elements in the SP. And even those have some wiggle room since some only require a reduction in GOE but not necessarily negative GOE.

    Carolina has very strong skating skills, but at the same time she is the tallest among the ladies. Naturally she can do fewer strokes to accelerate since each stroke is so massive compared to say Liza's stroking. Height also affects the perception of a jump's "size". Not that that explains the difference (short ladies like Midori still had great speed), but it is a factor. A judge can take this into account when considering how much positive GOE to give to Liza's jumps, and adjust accordingly.

  6. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krislite View Post
    Carolina has very strong skating skills, but at the same time she is the tallest among the ladies. Naturally she can do fewer strokes to accelerate since each stroke is so massive compared to say Liza's stroking. Height also affects the perception of a jump's "size". Not that that explains the difference (short ladies like Midori still had great speed), but it is a factor. A judge can take this into account when considering how much positive GOE to give to Liza's jumps, and adjust accordingly.
    Taller doesn't mean your "fewer strokes" can accelerate faster. It's all edge control.
    Someone like Meryl can easily generate as much speed as Caro and Meryl is tiny.

    A lot of taller guys, maybe 8-9 inches, got nothing on Oda or Koz or Dai or Patrick. Again, strong skating skills, not height.

    I agree that height affects the perception of jump size. But judges can see it.

    Why should a judge take into account if someone is shorter and therefore deserve better GOE? Should Michael Phelps get a -30 sec deduction because his body is ideal for swimming? Should his competitors get a 10 sec head start as well?

    Comparing Liza and Caro, the difference is so vast, it's ridiculous that Liza can even come close.

  7. #172
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    My parents hightailed out of Seoul last week. Anyway, I was going through some of their pics, and found Miss Yuna hawking jewelries plastered all over Korean Air shopping alley on the A380 plane. Next to Charlize Theron. She's a star!

    I don't think Mao and Caro can rival her when it comes to advertisement.

  8. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    My parents hightailed out of Seoul last week. Anyway, I was going through some of their pics, and found Miss Yuna hawking jewelries plastered all over Korean Air shopping alley on the A380 plane. Next to Charlize Theron. She's a star!

    I don't think Mao and Caro can rival her when it comes to advertisement.
    Yuna seriously sells everything in Korea. She does ads for yogurt, refrigerators, watches, jewerly, Samsung Galaxy, Nike Korea, bank, Hyundai, bakery chain, beer, milk, I can't even name everything.
    I went to Korea last summer, and her face is literally everywhere. She is probably #1 loved public figure in Korea. I remember the Korean stock market actually came to a stop during her LP at 2010 olympics and the president of Korea called Yuna to personally congratulate her on her OGM. I wonder how many athletes have the power to freeze the stock market, lol.

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    is Kim even planning to go beyond Sochi.
    I don't believe either of them can rival Yuna, they'd have to settle for silver or bronze.
    As for Kim beyong Sochi, if that was true it would be a true nightmare for the other skaters

  10. #175
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    With the performance at the World team trophy of Adelina Sotnikova, I think that anything is possible to match Kim Yu-Na.
    Adelina have understand what is the goal to beat Yu-Na Kim, it is necessary to put a 3/3 with a triple lutz and a triple flip like solo jump in the SP without that it is impossible to challenge Yu-Na except for a skater like Akiko Suzuki who can beat Yu-Na in the component side and make maybe a triple/triple more easiest if the other element are perfect.

    What an exiting season who will have for the Olympic if everyone play the big gun

    GO Ladies: Triple lutz/Triple toe or Triple lutz/Triple loop or Triple axel is the key!

    And congratulation to Adelina Sotnikova who has understand that soon compare to some other skater

  11. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by coolboogie22 View Post
    With the performance at the World team trophy of Adelina Sotnikova, I think that anything is possible to match Kim Yu-Na.
    among the the Russian girls, I think Tuktamysheva is more likely beat her.
    And her coach already looking forward to it.

    Alexei Mishin's interview about 2013 worlds (google translate)
    Alexei Mishin said, with what high mission of his pupil came to Canada in London.
    - Lisa was set to win an Olympic champion Yu-Na Kim - curled Alexei. - But in the short program, this spirit it devoured. She performed a brilliant cascade of three-three, made the second element, layback, and then there was this fall before entering the rotation of the axel and oiled. Today, she could not speak. A serious condition. But still her skating, even with errors, has a very decent level. Girl with good potential. So I calmly look at her modest results in these competitions. The main thing is it has no problems with jumping. That's my "method": we do not underrotated.
    http://www.rg.ru/2013/03/17/figuristka-site.html

  12. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by ellelee View Post
    Yuna seriously sells everything in Korea. She does ads for yogurt, refrigerators, watches, jewerly, Samsung Galaxy, Nike Korea, bank, Hyundai, bakery chain, beer, milk, I can't even name everything.
    I went to Korea last summer, and her face is literally everywhere. She is probably #1 loved public figure in Korea. I remember the Korean stock market actually came to a stop during her LP at 2010 olympics and the president of Korea called Yuna to personally congratulate her on her OGM. I wonder how many athletes have the power to freeze the stock market, lol.
    It's interesting how Kim has no doubt helped the Korean economy by popularizing Korean made products to the world. I know a lot of people outside of Korea wanted the crown earrings Kim wore at the Olympics which were made by a Korean company. I'm sure the same goes for Korean made shoes like Prospecs and other things that she endorses as well.

    Personally, I blame Kim for getting me hooked on Korean dramas . Originally, I came across a subtitled video clip of Kim hosting her ice skating TV show in Korea (it was exactly like Korea's version of Skating with the Stars and David Wilson was one of the judges!). a Korean actress was skating on the show. They showed a clip of the actress in a Korean drama and I thought it looked really entertaining. So then I checked out the drama (which was called "Secret Garden") and enjoyed it so much that I ended up watching the whole thing subtitled on a site called dramafever. It was funny because my family and I have no connection to Korea whatsoever, so they would be watching football or something and totally confused why I was watching a Korean drama on the computer all the time

  13. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Here's the ladies at World this year.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bguVR...endscreen&NR=1

    4. Zijun. Her jumps are very small... Should not get any +GOE on the jumps, either.

    7. Caro. The lutz was just perfect, text book perfect.
    I agree with most of what you said, but a couple points I disagree with (these 2 as examples). Zijun IS small but for her height, her jumps get decent height and she gets a lot of distance on them and good flow on the exits... look at her 3F-3T or 3F, for example.

    Caro's lutz is textbook except for that hugely telegraphed entry. An issue with her is that she really needs a ton of speed to execute her jumps, which means a lot of set up. Li, for comparison, did a 2A-3T almost immediately after her 3F-3T and with practically no preparation. As much as I hate telegraphing, it does kinda work for Kostner in that it emphasizes how much speed she's carrying across the ice to practically hold a lutz edge the entire width of the ice (I'd have given it a +1, because of the lack of flow on the landing and blatant telegraphing, but everything else about it was lovely).

  14. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Here are some flips with steps right in front, and the flow in and out was wonderful, too.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...ZgoPpCAI#t=86s
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...8BqVrpro#t=81s

    I agree about Irina. Her landings always come to a complete stop. I think she was generously scored on GOE a lot of the time. A while back, I was comparing Caro and Irina's jumps, and Caro had better GOE even during Irina's reign.

    Shizuka is one of those whose jumps have great flow in and out. She doesn't have the height, but the distance is big. I love her skating skills. Probably the closest to Carolina in that department.
    This is ********. I've provided you with PLENTY of Irina's triple flip that had fantastic height AND flow but contrarily to Caro's flips they weren't set up for the whole length of ice rink...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsrxgkMdt8E&t=2m45s

    She does a leg lift, some turns, change of edges and still maintains huge speed going into the jump. Possible? Yes, not for Caro though...

    And very often Irina would get higher GEO. I have no idea why you're trying to encourage people to believe this but many of your "facts" are simply untrue.

  15. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartek View Post
    This is ********. I've provided you with PLENTY of Irina's triple flip that had fantastic height AND flow but contrarily to Caro's flips they weren't set up for the whole length of ice rink...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsrxgkMdt8E&t=2m45s

    She does a leg lift, some turns, change of edges and still maintains huge speed going into the jump. Possible? Yes, not for Caro though...

    And very often Irina would get higher GEO. I have no idea why you're trying to encourage people to believe this but many of your "facts" are simply untrue.
    Are you having trouble understanding or something? ALL OF YOUR EXAMPLES are pre-CoP, so how would she get higher GOE? I provided plenty of examples where Caro got higher GOE for the same element in the same competition (when she was still a nobody compare to Irina)
    It's funny because Irina is known to come to a complete halt whenever she jumps, you can find one or two example where she has flow out, but she's not a "flow" type of skater.
    I have no idea why something so simple is so hard to understand.

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