04-10-2013, 12:38 PM
What you said is true, to an extent. If you don't have great height and distance, it's very hard to get any flow in/out of the jump. With flow, you can do a lot of creative exit or extension. Physically, they are all related except for the steps preceding the jumps. Sasha should get +1 for that jump. Steps preceding solo jump is required. She would have gotten -3 if she didn't include any steps. There was a break before the jump. If you want to see clear steps/movements right before a jump, here's one. With good extension and flow on the exit, too.
Originally Posted by cheerio2
Tell me what else did she do that warrant + GOE?
Liza is slow. She skated very small.
#1 - no
#2 - no
#3 - no
#4 - no
#5 - no
#6 - no
1) Unexpected / creative / difficult entry -
2) Clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
3) Varied position in the air / delay in rotation
4) Great height and/or distance
5) Superior extension on landing / creative exit
6) Superior flow in and out (and in-between in jump combinations / sequences)
As you can see, Caro's jumps get bullets 3-6 even when she telegraphs them. That's why they are +2/+3.
Liza doesn't, and shouldn't get any GOE.
04-10-2013, 04:40 PM
I think height and distance do affect flow, but there are also exceptions to that, so it makes sense that these are separate bullets instead of just one for height and distance. Irina had big jumps, but I felt her jump landings were often clunky and she didn't get much flowout. Shizuka didn't have the biggest jumps but her landings were always so flow-y.
Your clip of three turns before a loop is certainly clear steps right before, but I haven't seen anyone do a flip from steps without any break before the jump, including Caro. All the top girls now do the flip from much simpler steps with as much of of a break (or more) than what Sasha had in 2002, so I think Sasha definitely exceeded the usual step requirement there.
I agree that Caro has 4 and 6 on a regular basis, but I wouldn't give her 3 or 5 automatically for every jump.
04-10-2013, 05:07 PM
Here are some flips with steps right in front, and the flow in and out was wonderful, too.
I agree about Irina. Her landings always come to a complete stop. I think she was generously scored on GOE a lot of the time. A while back, I was comparing Caro and Irina's jumps, and Caro had better GOE even during Irina's reign.
Shizuka is one of those whose jumps have great flow in and out. She doesn't have the height, but the distance is big. I love her skating skills. Probably the closest to Carolina in that department.
04-10-2013, 05:14 PM
That Osmond clip was I didn't realize it was possible to do that! Very impressed.
04-10-2013, 06:59 PM
Six Point Zero
The bullets for positive GOE are only guidelines according to the technical handbook, not hard rules. Each judge can deviate according to their own discretion if they think the executed element warrants it.
The only hard and fast rules are about falls, UR and edge calls, as well as required elements in the SP. And even those have some wiggle room since some only require a reduction in GOE but not necessarily negative GOE.
Carolina has very strong skating skills, but at the same time she is the tallest among the ladies. Naturally she can do fewer strokes to accelerate since each stroke is so massive compared to say Liza's stroking. Height also affects the perception of a jump's "size". Not that that explains the difference (short ladies like Midori still had great speed), but it is a factor. A judge can take this into account when considering how much positive GOE to give to Liza's jumps, and adjust accordingly.
04-10-2013, 07:29 PM
Taller doesn't mean your "fewer strokes" can accelerate faster. It's all edge control.
Originally Posted by Krislite
Someone like Meryl can easily generate as much speed as Caro and Meryl is tiny.
A lot of taller guys, maybe 8-9 inches, got nothing on Oda or Koz or Dai or Patrick. Again, strong skating skills, not height.
I agree that height affects the perception of jump size. But judges can see it.
Why should a judge take into account if someone is shorter and therefore deserve better GOE? Should Michael Phelps get a -30 sec deduction because his body is ideal for swimming? Should his competitors get a 10 sec head start as well?
Comparing Liza and Caro, the difference is so vast, it's ridiculous that Liza can even come close.
04-10-2013, 10:01 PM
My parents hightailed out of Seoul last week. Anyway, I was going through some of their pics, and found Miss Yuna hawking jewelries plastered all over Korean Air shopping alley on the A380 plane. Next to Charlize Theron. She's a star!
I don't think Mao and Caro can rival her when it comes to advertisement.
04-10-2013, 10:24 PM
Yuna seriously sells everything in Korea. She does ads for yogurt, refrigerators, watches, jewerly, Samsung Galaxy, Nike Korea, bank, Hyundai, bakery chain, beer, milk, I can't even name everything.
Originally Posted by FlattFan
I went to Korea last summer, and her face is literally everywhere. She is probably #1 loved public figure in Korea. I remember the Korean stock market actually came to a stop during her LP at 2010 olympics and the president of Korea called Yuna to personally congratulate her on her OGM. I wonder how many athletes have the power to freeze the stock market, lol.
04-10-2013, 10:41 PM
On the Ice
I don't believe either of them can rival Yuna, they'd have to settle for silver or bronze.
Originally Posted by pangtongfan
As for Kim beyong Sochi, if that was true it would be a true nightmare for the other skaters
04-11-2013, 08:00 AM
04-11-2013, 08:48 AM
among the the Russian girls, I think Tuktamysheva is more likely beat her.
Originally Posted by coolboogie22
And her coach already looking forward to it.
Alexei Mishin's interview about 2013 worlds (google translate)
Alexei Mishin said, with what high mission of his pupil came to Canada in London.
- Lisa was set to win an Olympic champion Yu-Na Kim - curled Alexei. - But in the short program, this spirit it devoured. She performed a brilliant cascade of three-three, made the second element, layback, and then there was this fall before entering the rotation of the axel and oiled. Today, she could not speak. A serious condition. But still her skating, even with errors, has a very decent level. Girl with good potential. So I calmly look at her modest results in these competitions. The main thing is it has no problems with jumping. That's my "method": we do not underrotated.
04-11-2013, 09:15 AM
04-11-2013, 09:23 AM
I agree with most of what you said, but a couple points I disagree with (these 2 as examples). Zijun IS small but for her height, her jumps get decent height and she gets a lot of distance on them and good flow on the exits... look at her 3F-3T or 3F, for example.
Originally Posted by FlattFan
Caro's lutz is textbook except for that hugely telegraphed entry. An issue with her is that she really needs a ton of speed to execute her jumps, which means a lot of set up. Li, for comparison, did a 2A-3T almost immediately after her 3F-3T and with practically no preparation. As much as I hate telegraphing, it does kinda work for Kostner in that it emphasizes how much speed she's carrying across the ice to practically hold a lutz edge the entire width of the ice (I'd have given it a +1, because of the lack of flow on the landing and blatant telegraphing, but everything else about it was lovely).
04-11-2013, 11:41 AM
This is ********. I've provided you with PLENTY of Irina's triple flip that had fantastic height AND flow but contrarily to Caro's flips they weren't set up for the whole length of ice rink...
Originally Posted by FlattFan
She does a leg lift, some turns, change of edges and still maintains huge speed going into the jump. Possible? Yes, not for Caro though...
And very often Irina would get higher GEO. I have no idea why you're trying to encourage people to believe this but many of your "facts" are simply untrue.
04-11-2013, 12:11 PM
Are you having trouble understanding or something? ALL OF YOUR EXAMPLES are pre-CoP, so how would she get higher GOE? I provided plenty of examples where Caro got higher GOE for the same element in the same competition (when she was still a nobody compare to Irina)
Originally Posted by Bartek
It's funny because Irina is known to come to a complete halt whenever she jumps, you can find one or two example where she has flow out, but she's not a "flow" type of skater.
I have no idea why something so simple is so hard to understand.