Who can rival Kim in Sochi: Asada or Kostner? | Page 10 | Golden Skate

Who can rival Kim in Sochi: Asada or Kostner?

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FlattFan

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yuna's inabauer+2A which got +0.8 GOE http://youtu.be/6MfgGsf0cZA?t=1m48s
carolina's 2A which got +1.0 GOE http://youtu.be/jNLvKCQEXdA?t=2m9s

Caro's has superior flow out of her 2A, and her free leg has better extension than Yuna. Both are very good. But if you look further back, Caro's GOE on her 2A have been very high consistently, thanks to her speed in and flow out and interesting exit.

yuna's 3lz-3t which got +1.4 GOE http://youtu.be/6MfgGsf0cZA?t=46s
carolina's 3L which got +1.3 GOE http://youtu.be/jNLvKCQEXdA?t=54s
It helped to have direct and clear steps right before the jump. The loop is huge. It's not like out of no where she's getting the GOE she's getting, right?
 

FlattFan

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Caro's lutz is textbook except for that hugely telegraphed entry. An issue with her is that she really needs a ton of speed to execute her jumps, which means a lot of set up.

I like a telegraphed entry to a lutz. A telegraphed jump doesn't make a bad jump. As long as she excels in every other bullets, she will get +2/+3.
Frankly, I prefer that lutz to all of them (except Yuna's 3Lutz-3Toe) and so do the judges.
And I like she uses a ton of speed to execute her jumps.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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You can't really ding Irina for having steps into her 3F and not having as much flow out of them. Obviously having steps means less speed and less flow. As for the GOE difference, I think the judges are disregarding Carolina's telegraphing when considering their GOE. Like the 3lutz, Carolina really telegraphs her 3F, but makes up for it with a high, distant jump. As spectacular as it is, as I've said, I don't think Carolina would be capable of intricate steps into her 3F as it would kill the speed she requires to vault up (if there are instances where she has, feel free to point them out).
 

Bartek

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You can't really ding Irina for having steps into her 3F and not having as much flow out of them. Obviously having steps means less speed and less flow. As for the GOE difference, I think the judges are disregarding Carolina's telegraphing when considering their GOE. Like the 3lutz, Carolina really telegraphs her 3F, but makes up for it with a high, distant jump. As spectacular as it is, as I've said, I don't think Carolina would be capable of intricate steps into her 3F as it would kill the speed she requires to vault up (if there are instances where she has, feel free to point them out).

That's it! Mao's entrance into her flip combination kills the speed and the short time she spent doing crossovers doesn't help either. Maybe she should start gain speed like Carolina using the whole side of the rink, get rid of all her transitions, skate through the whole rink doing nothing and than land her flip higher, possibly fully rotated? No, I'd rather she kept her transitions and tried to master the program the way it is. Carolina's flip and lutz are FANTASTIC but the entrance is terrible and if she were to add some steps she would probably falter. Slutskaya's flip is superior because it has the flow, steps through the whole approach, well-extended free leg and huge height.
 

Bartek

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Are you having trouble understanding or something? ALL OF YOUR EXAMPLES are pre-CoP, so how would she get higher GOE? I provided plenty of examples where Caro got higher GOE for the same element in the same competition (when she was still a nobody compare to Irina)
It's funny because Irina is known to come to a complete halt whenever she jumps, you can find one or two example where she has flow out, but she's not a "flow" type of skater.
I have no idea why something so simple is so hard to understand.

In the previous thread I have provided you with something like 6 or 7 examples where Irina did her flip with steps and flow and those were taken from both 6.0 and CoP. She simply maintained the quality of her flip for years, contrarily to Carolina.

It is you who struggle to understand clearly discernible facts given you on a plate. Those are CoP competition, really, believe me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QmAhFM5v80&t=1m9s 2005 CoC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZdQfX1W7c8&t=1m30s 2005 Euros (this one has also creative exit and well-extended free leg)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQi2HcUZFu0&t=1m6s 2005 Worlds

Unfortunately there are no all her performances on youtube from 2004-2006 but there is a lot of from her earlier career. Not just one or two great flips.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qP6JJcxLhw&t=1m33s Worlds 2000 (the set up is generally shorter than in case of Carolina who needs the whole rink to prepare and land the jump very closely to the barrier)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRf0syHORQA&t=1m28s 2001 Euros

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUYPoEOSwWU&t=1m05s 2000 Euros (wonderful landing edge held for a long time with good free leg)

Her axel is also superior to Carolina's one. The set-up is ridiculously short with almost no crossovers and yet she gets more height on it and has beautiful flow out of the jump with extended free leg. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePYXpf4mKwE&t=1m29s

Irina would lose the speed on her lutzes and jump combinations, that's true, but not on her flips.
 

FlattFan

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One is known to have flow, one is known to eek out jumps. Of course you can find contrary examples, but to say a B student who occasionally gets A is an A student is incorrect.
Irina will never get the kind of GOE Carolina can get.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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One is known to have flow, one is known to eek out jumps. Of course you can find contrary examples, but to say a B student who occasionally gets A is an A student is incorrect.
Irina will never get the kind of GOE Carolina can get.

I like Carolina's flip moreso than Irina's - the jump part - but I appreciate the footwork going into Irina's and the greater spring she gets. Carolina's is a great flip when she executes it, but that's just it -- she has inconsistencies with it and so I would give the nod to Irina.
 

Li'Kitsu

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FlattFan said:
One is known to have flow, one is known to eek out jumps

:unsure:
You can dislike her all you want, but Irina certainly didn't eek out her jumps, and by no means she's "known for it".
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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I like a telegraphed entry to a lutz. A telegraphed jump doesn't make a bad jump. As long as she excels in every other bullets, she will get +2/+3.
Frankly, I prefer that lutz to all of them (except Yuna's 3Lutz-3Toe) and so do the judges.
And I like she uses a ton of speed to execute her jumps.

Actually, a telegraphed/stalked jump is supposed to be a GOE deduction, depending on how bad the telegraphing is and how good the jump is to make up for the telegraphed entry. Kostner's lutz should still get +GOE though because the jump is well executed.
 

CarneAsada

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Irina's jumps never look particularly eked out (can you guys stop spelling it eek), flow or no flow. Besides, she did loop combos. Does anyone have good flow out of a loop combo? I can't think of any.
 

drivingmissdaisy

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Back to the subject of the thread... I think another contender will be Adelina. I have always liked her but she is wildly inconsistent. Yesterday we saw her 67+ with a flawed program ("e" on 3Z and < on 3T). On EVERY other element, she got level 4 (where applicable) and at least +1.00 in GOE. If she is clean she can score 70+ and if she can improve her (already high) PCS over the summer it would not surprise me to see her score 72+ in the SP. I still don't think she is strong enough at this point to match Yuna in the LP but Adelina is generally headed in the right direction and I am excited to see how much she improves in the next few months.
 

Nadia01

Final Flight
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Nov 10, 2009
Back to the subject of the thread... I think another contender will be Adelina. I have always liked her but she is wildly inconsistent. Yesterday we saw her 67+ with a flawed program ("e" on 3Z and < on 3T). On EVERY other element, she got level 4 (where applicable) and at least +1.00 in GOE. If she is clean she can score 70+ and if she can improve her (already high) PCS over the summer it would not surprise me to see her score 72+ in the SP. I still don't think she is strong enough at this point to match Yuna in the LP but Adelina is generally headed in the right direction and I am excited to see how much she improves in the next few months.

She can also benefit from home ice advantage. Or get crushed by the home pressure. So it'll be up to her how she handles herself. I don't think she can beat clean Yuna, but I think she can definitely upset Mao and/or CaroK for a medal.
 

FlattFan

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:unsure:
You can dislike her all you want, but Irina certainly didn't eek out her jumps, and by no means she's "known for it".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxFjlJpi5MY

Even when she put the 3T at the end of the combo, she came to a complete stop on ALL OF THEM. This is the girl who is known for her landing problem. A consistent problem, not just one or two times. I actually think she's fine. I don't dislike her. But I don't think she's that great a jumper everyone made her out to be. Her GOE should be in the negative for almost every single jumps (except loop and Sal)
 

FlattFan

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Irina's jumps never look particularly eked out (can you guys stop spelling it eek), flow or no flow. Besides, she did loop combos. Does anyone have good flow out of a loop combo? I can't think of any.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxFjlJpi5MY
Watch and think for yourself.

Midori had a lot of flow out of her 2Lo-3Lo combo.
Shizuka also had a lot of flow out of her 2Lo combo, or even 3Lo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPQun-K9rQs

If you have flow, you have flow.
 

CarneAsada

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxFjlJpi5MY
Watch and think for yourself.

Midori had a lot of flow out of her 2Lo-3Lo combo.
Shizuka also had a lot of flow out of her 2Lo combo, or even 3Lo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPQun-K9rQs

If you have flow, you have flow.

Wow. I'd forgotten how Irina came to a complete standstill after her combos. Miki and Mao who are not even standouts in terms of flow out of combos had plenty of flow compared to that. And they even underrotated less than Irina most of the time.

Miki: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u15HCptYOws
Mao: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWz30bLzSdE

And here is Midori's 2Lo-3Lo for anyone else: http://youtu.be/Wl3PelmX05M?t=47s
 

Bartek

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Dec 29, 2009
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxFjlJpi5MY
Watch and think for yourself.

Midori had a lot of flow out of her 2Lo-3Lo combo.
Shizuka also had a lot of flow out of her 2Lo combo, or even 3Lo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPQun-K9rQs

If you have flow, you have flow.

Yes, Irina lost the flow on her combos notoriously but her solo jumps were usually sepctacular. Landing double axels, triple sals, triplo loops AND triple flips with flow out of them was a regular thing for her througout her whole career. She came to a stop on her lutz landings and combos though, as has been said, however all in all she was an outstanding jumper. Her sals, axels are normally simply better than Caro's or Yu-Na's and I've given plenty of examples of her great flips taken from her whole career.

Now, I'm working on Caro's triple-triples video and you'll see than she would lose flow very often on her 3F+3T or had some wonky landings (which resulated in loss of speed), and ALWAYS when she put 2Lo at the end.
 

pointyourtoe

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Apr 11, 2013
I just love all these videos of Midori. Call me crazy but I don't mind her leg wrap..her leg looks like a propeller that's helping to keep her suspended. It's not so garish as with other skaters like Yukari Nakano
 

CarneAsada

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Sep 17, 2011
Yes, Irina lost the flow on her combos notoriously but her solo jumps were usually sepctacular. Landing double axels, triple sals, triplo loops AND triple flips with flow out of them was a regular thing for her througout her whole career. She came to a stop on her lutz landings and combos though, as has been said, however all in all she was an outstanding jumper. Her sals, axels are normally simply better than Caro's or Yu-Na's and I've given plenty of examples of her great flips taken from her whole career.

Now, I'm working on Caro's triple-triples video and you'll see than she would lose flow very often on her 3F+3T or had some wonky landings (which resulated in loss of speed), and ALWAYS when she put 2Lo at the end.

Yu-na has far better axels than Irina ever did with great flow in and out and about 5 different difficult entries. She can do spread eagle into 2A-3Toe and Ina Bauer into 2A-2Toe-2Loop. The former has great speed at the end and the latter has almost none due to her famous aversion to the loop, but still plenty more than any combo Irina would do. No one was better at getting points with the 2A than Yu-na. Why else did her fans complain so bitterly when the 2A was limited to 2 in the long program?
 

MiRé

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Yu-na has far better axels than Irina ever did with great flow in and out and about 5 different difficult entries. She can do spread eagle into 2A-3Toe and Ina Bauer into 2A-2Toe-2Loop. The former has great speed at the end and the latter has almost none due to her famous aversion to the loop, but still plenty more than any combo Irina would do. No one was better at getting points with the 2A than Yu-na. Why else did her fans complain so bitterly when the 2A was limited to 2 in the long program?

Yuna can also do Ina Bauer into 2A-3T :biggrin:
 

Bartek

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Dec 29, 2009
Irina would never bother to do such combos because she didn't need them under 6.0. Did anyone actually land axel combinations like 2A+3T in the old system? I agree that overall Yu-Na has the edge because of the jumps she adds to the 2A but the jumps itself is not definitely "far better" than Irina. What are those 5 difficult entrances? I remember Yu-Na doing a spread eagle and ina bauer entry to axel, nothing more. The sheer jump is comparable with Irina who has a little bit more height and power to it and holds the edge for a long time with well-extended free leg, what Yu-Na does not do. Irina did not have any difficult entries but performed her double axel with a very short set-up or right after her 3F using just the flow she had after the flip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8Lr_dgpX9E&t=3m34s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waquBqyrAvg&t=3m17s

This is very nice. No time to prepare at all, no crossovers, showing how easy the jump was for her.

And here we have a wonderful 2A with this edge held for a long time and again the set-up is very short:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uIvHWQ7vyY&t=1m52s if this doesn't have the flow and height then I don't know what has...

All of those above are comparable to Yu-Na but this one is simply superior. A perfect textbook +3 2A with no telegraphed entry, big height and distance, tano variation, wonderful flowing edge in and out of it, good extention of the free leg (this is what Yu-Na lacks) and a difficult/creative exit with those change of edges (Mao used it as well in her Clair de Lune 2A):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQVwA28Jm-w&t=1m41s

Interestingly, the varied position in the air did not affect the distance covered and spring.

I'm not saying Yu-Na has a bad 2A or something, it's fantastic but I would just give a tiny edge to Slutskaya.
 
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