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Thread: Who can rival Kim in Sochi: Asada or Kostner?

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by venlac View Post
    yuna's inabauer+2A which got +0.8 GOE http://youtu.be/6MfgGsf0cZA?t=1m48s
    carolina's 2A which got +1.0 GOE http://youtu.be/jNLvKCQEXdA?t=2m9s
    Caro's has superior flow out of her 2A, and her free leg has better extension than Yuna. Both are very good. But if you look further back, Caro's GOE on her 2A have been very high consistently, thanks to her speed in and flow out and interesting exit.

    yuna's 3lz-3t which got +1.4 GOE http://youtu.be/6MfgGsf0cZA?t=46s
    carolina's 3L which got +1.3 GOE http://youtu.be/jNLvKCQEXdA?t=54s
    It helped to have direct and clear steps right before the jump. The loop is huge. It's not like out of no where she's getting the GOE she's getting, right?

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Caro's lutz is textbook except for that hugely telegraphed entry. An issue with her is that she really needs a ton of speed to execute her jumps, which means a lot of set up.
    I like a telegraphed entry to a lutz. A telegraphed jump doesn't make a bad jump. As long as she excels in every other bullets, she will get +2/+3.
    Frankly, I prefer that lutz to all of them (except Yuna's 3Lutz-3Toe) and so do the judges.
    And I like she uses a ton of speed to execute her jumps.

  3. #183
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    You can't really ding Irina for having steps into her 3F and not having as much flow out of them. Obviously having steps means less speed and less flow. As for the GOE difference, I think the judges are disregarding Carolina's telegraphing when considering their GOE. Like the 3lutz, Carolina really telegraphs her 3F, but makes up for it with a high, distant jump. As spectacular as it is, as I've said, I don't think Carolina would be capable of intricate steps into her 3F as it would kill the speed she requires to vault up (if there are instances where she has, feel free to point them out).

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    You can't really ding Irina for having steps into her 3F and not having as much flow out of them. Obviously having steps means less speed and less flow. As for the GOE difference, I think the judges are disregarding Carolina's telegraphing when considering their GOE. Like the 3lutz, Carolina really telegraphs her 3F, but makes up for it with a high, distant jump. As spectacular as it is, as I've said, I don't think Carolina would be capable of intricate steps into her 3F as it would kill the speed she requires to vault up (if there are instances where she has, feel free to point them out).
    That's it! Mao's entrance into her flip combination kills the speed and the short time she spent doing crossovers doesn't help either. Maybe she should start gain speed like Carolina using the whole side of the rink, get rid of all her transitions, skate through the whole rink doing nothing and than land her flip higher, possibly fully rotated? No, I'd rather she kept her transitions and tried to master the program the way it is. Carolina's flip and lutz are FANTASTIC but the entrance is terrible and if she were to add some steps she would probably falter. Slutskaya's flip is superior because it has the flow, steps through the whole approach, well-extended free leg and huge height.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Are you having trouble understanding or something? ALL OF YOUR EXAMPLES are pre-CoP, so how would she get higher GOE? I provided plenty of examples where Caro got higher GOE for the same element in the same competition (when she was still a nobody compare to Irina)
    It's funny because Irina is known to come to a complete halt whenever she jumps, you can find one or two example where she has flow out, but she's not a "flow" type of skater.
    I have no idea why something so simple is so hard to understand.
    In the previous thread I have provided you with something like 6 or 7 examples where Irina did her flip with steps and flow and those were taken from both 6.0 and CoP. She simply maintained the quality of her flip for years, contrarily to Carolina.

    It is you who struggle to understand clearly discernible facts given you on a plate. Those are CoP competition, really, believe me:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QmAhFM5v80&t=1m9s 2005 CoC

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZdQfX1W7c8&t=1m30s 2005 Euros (this one has also creative exit and well-extended free leg)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQi2HcUZFu0&t=1m6s 2005 Worlds

    Unfortunately there are no all her performances on youtube from 2004-2006 but there is a lot of from her earlier career. Not just one or two great flips.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qP6JJcxLhw&t=1m33s Worlds 2000 (the set up is generally shorter than in case of Carolina who needs the whole rink to prepare and land the jump very closely to the barrier)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRf0syHORQA&t=1m28s 2001 Euros

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUYPoEOSwWU&t=1m05s 2000 Euros (wonderful landing edge held for a long time with good free leg)

    Her axel is also superior to Carolina's one. The set-up is ridiculously short with almost no crossovers and yet she gets more height on it and has beautiful flow out of the jump with extended free leg. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePYXpf4mKwE&t=1m29s

    Irina would lose the speed on her lutzes and jump combinations, that's true, but not on her flips.

  6. #186
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    One is known to have flow, one is known to eek out jumps. Of course you can find contrary examples, but to say a B student who occasionally gets A is an A student is incorrect.
    Irina will never get the kind of GOE Carolina can get.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    One is known to have flow, one is known to eek out jumps. Of course you can find contrary examples, but to say a B student who occasionally gets A is an A student is incorrect.
    Irina will never get the kind of GOE Carolina can get.
    I like Carolina's flip moreso than Irina's - the jump part - but I appreciate the footwork going into Irina's and the greater spring she gets. Carolina's is a great flip when she executes it, but that's just it -- she has inconsistencies with it and so I would give the nod to Irina.

  8. #188
    Forever stuck on those steps Li'Kitsu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan
    One is known to have flow, one is known to eek out jumps

    You can dislike her all you want, but Irina certainly didn't eek out her jumps, and by no means she's "known for it".

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    I like a telegraphed entry to a lutz. A telegraphed jump doesn't make a bad jump. As long as she excels in every other bullets, she will get +2/+3.
    Frankly, I prefer that lutz to all of them (except Yuna's 3Lutz-3Toe) and so do the judges.
    And I like she uses a ton of speed to execute her jumps.
    Actually, a telegraphed/stalked jump is supposed to be a GOE deduction, depending on how bad the telegraphing is and how good the jump is to make up for the telegraphed entry. Kostner's lutz should still get +GOE though because the jump is well executed.

  10. #190
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    Irina's jumps never look particularly eked out (can you guys stop spelling it eek), flow or no flow. Besides, she did loop combos. Does anyone have good flow out of a loop combo? I can't think of any.

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    Back to the subject of the thread... I think another contender will be Adelina. I have always liked her but she is wildly inconsistent. Yesterday we saw her 67+ with a flawed program ("e" on 3Z and < on 3T). On EVERY other element, she got level 4 (where applicable) and at least +1.00 in GOE. If she is clean she can score 70+ and if she can improve her (already high) PCS over the summer it would not surprise me to see her score 72+ in the SP. I still don't think she is strong enough at this point to match Yuna in the LP but Adelina is generally headed in the right direction and I am excited to see how much she improves in the next few months.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    Back to the subject of the thread... I think another contender will be Adelina. I have always liked her but she is wildly inconsistent. Yesterday we saw her 67+ with a flawed program ("e" on 3Z and < on 3T). On EVERY other element, she got level 4 (where applicable) and at least +1.00 in GOE. If she is clean she can score 70+ and if she can improve her (already high) PCS over the summer it would not surprise me to see her score 72+ in the SP. I still don't think she is strong enough at this point to match Yuna in the LP but Adelina is generally headed in the right direction and I am excited to see how much she improves in the next few months.
    She can also benefit from home ice advantage. Or get crushed by the home pressure. So it'll be up to her how she handles herself. I don't think she can beat clean Yuna, but I think she can definitely upset Mao and/or CaroK for a medal.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post

    You can dislike her all you want, but Irina certainly didn't eek out her jumps, and by no means she's "known for it".
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxFjlJpi5MY

    Even when she put the 3T at the end of the combo, she came to a complete stop on ALL OF THEM. This is the girl who is known for her landing problem. A consistent problem, not just one or two times. I actually think she's fine. I don't dislike her. But I don't think she's that great a jumper everyone made her out to be. Her GOE should be in the negative for almost every single jumps (except loop and Sal)

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarneAsada View Post
    Irina's jumps never look particularly eked out (can you guys stop spelling it eek), flow or no flow. Besides, she did loop combos. Does anyone have good flow out of a loop combo? I can't think of any.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxFjlJpi5MY
    Watch and think for yourself.

    Midori had a lot of flow out of her 2Lo-3Lo combo.
    Shizuka also had a lot of flow out of her 2Lo combo, or even 3Lo
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPQun-K9rQs

    If you have flow, you have flow.

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxFjlJpi5MY
    Watch and think for yourself.

    Midori had a lot of flow out of her 2Lo-3Lo combo.
    Shizuka also had a lot of flow out of her 2Lo combo, or even 3Lo
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPQun-K9rQs

    If you have flow, you have flow.
    Wow. I'd forgotten how Irina came to a complete standstill after her combos. Miki and Mao who are not even standouts in terms of flow out of combos had plenty of flow compared to that. And they even underrotated less than Irina most of the time.

    Miki: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u15HCptYOws
    Mao: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWz30bLzSdE

    And here is Midori's 2Lo-3Lo for anyone else: http://youtu.be/Wl3PelmX05M?t=47s

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