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Thread: Who can rival Kim in Sochi: Asada or Kostner?

  1. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxFjlJpi5MY
    Watch and think for yourself.

    Midori had a lot of flow out of her 2Lo-3Lo combo.
    Shizuka also had a lot of flow out of her 2Lo combo, or even 3Lo
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPQun-K9rQs

    If you have flow, you have flow.
    Yes, Irina lost the flow on her combos notoriously but her solo jumps were usually sepctacular. Landing double axels, triple sals, triplo loops AND triple flips with flow out of them was a regular thing for her througout her whole career. She came to a stop on her lutz landings and combos though, as has been said, however all in all she was an outstanding jumper. Her sals, axels are normally simply better than Caro's or Yu-Na's and I've given plenty of examples of her great flips taken from her whole career.

    Now, I'm working on Caro's triple-triples video and you'll see than she would lose flow very often on her 3F+3T or had some wonky landings (which resulated in loss of speed), and ALWAYS when she put 2Lo at the end.

  2. #197
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    I just love all these videos of Midori. Call me crazy but I don't mind her leg wrap..her leg looks like a propeller that's helping to keep her suspended. It's not so garish as with other skaters like Yukari Nakano

  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartek View Post
    Yes, Irina lost the flow on her combos notoriously but her solo jumps were usually sepctacular. Landing double axels, triple sals, triplo loops AND triple flips with flow out of them was a regular thing for her througout her whole career. She came to a stop on her lutz landings and combos though, as has been said, however all in all she was an outstanding jumper. Her sals, axels are normally simply better than Caro's or Yu-Na's and I've given plenty of examples of her great flips taken from her whole career.

    Now, I'm working on Caro's triple-triples video and you'll see than she would lose flow very often on her 3F+3T or had some wonky landings (which resulated in loss of speed), and ALWAYS when she put 2Lo at the end.
    Yu-na has far better axels than Irina ever did with great flow in and out and about 5 different difficult entries. She can do spread eagle into 2A-3Toe and Ina Bauer into 2A-2Toe-2Loop. The former has great speed at the end and the latter has almost none due to her famous aversion to the loop, but still plenty more than any combo Irina would do. No one was better at getting points with the 2A than Yu-na. Why else did her fans complain so bitterly when the 2A was limited to 2 in the long program?

  4. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarneAsada View Post
    Yu-na has far better axels than Irina ever did with great flow in and out and about 5 different difficult entries. She can do spread eagle into 2A-3Toe and Ina Bauer into 2A-2Toe-2Loop. The former has great speed at the end and the latter has almost none due to her famous aversion to the loop, but still plenty more than any combo Irina would do. No one was better at getting points with the 2A than Yu-na. Why else did her fans complain so bitterly when the 2A was limited to 2 in the long program?
    Yuna can also do Ina Bauer into 2A-3T

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    Irina would never bother to do such combos because she didn't need them under 6.0. Did anyone actually land axel combinations like 2A+3T in the old system? I agree that overall Yu-Na has the edge because of the jumps she adds to the 2A but the jumps itself is not definitely "far better" than Irina. What are those 5 difficult entrances? I remember Yu-Na doing a spread eagle and ina bauer entry to axel, nothing more. The sheer jump is comparable with Irina who has a little bit more height and power to it and holds the edge for a long time with well-extended free leg, what Yu-Na does not do. Irina did not have any difficult entries but performed her double axel with a very short set-up or right after her 3F using just the flow she had after the flip.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8Lr_dgpX9E&t=3m34s
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waquBqyrAvg&t=3m17s

    This is very nice. No time to prepare at all, no crossovers, showing how easy the jump was for her.

    And here we have a wonderful 2A with this edge held for a long time and again the set-up is very short:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uIvHWQ7vyY&t=1m52s if this doesn't have the flow and height then I don't know what has...

    All of those above are comparable to Yu-Na but this one is simply superior. A perfect textbook +3 2A with no telegraphed entry, big height and distance, tano variation, wonderful flowing edge in and out of it, good extention of the free leg (this is what Yu-Na lacks) and a difficult/creative exit with those change of edges (Mao used it as well in her Clair de Lune 2A):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQVwA28Jm-w&t=1m41s

    Interestingly, the varied position in the air did not affect the distance covered and spring.

    I'm not saying Yu-Na has a bad 2A or something, it's fantastic but I would just give a tiny edge to Slutskaya.

  6. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartek View Post
    All of those above are comparable to Yu-Na but this one is simply superior. A perfect textbook +3 2A with no telegraphed entry, big height and distance, tano variation, wonderful flowing edge in and out of it, good extention of the free leg (this is what Yu-Na lacks) and a difficult/creative exit with those change of edges (Mao used it as well in her Clair de Lune 2A):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQVwA28Jm-w&t=1m41s

    Interestingly, the varied position in the air did not affect the distance covered and spring.
    Sorry, but that is an extremely telegraphed 2A... she skates almost a full half-circle in the middle of the ice. But the actual jump itself though is great and superior to most, including a lot of Kim's 2As... +2 in my books, +3 if it didn't have the telegraphing.

  7. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartek View Post
    Irina would never bother to do such combos because she didn't need them under 6.0. Did anyone actually land axel combinations like 2A+3T in the old system? I agree that overall Yu-Na has the edge because of the jumps she adds to the 2A but the jumps itself is not definitely "far better" than Irina. What are those 5 difficult entrances? I remember Yu-Na doing a spread eagle and ina bauer entry to axel, nothing more. The sheer jump is comparable with Irina who has a little bit more height and power to it and holds the edge for a long time with well-extended free leg, what Yu-Na does not do. Irina did not have any difficult entries but performed her double axel with a very short set-up or right after her 3F using just the flow she had after the flip.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8Lr_dgpX9E&t=3m34s
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waquBqyrAvg&t=3m17s

    This is very nice. No time to prepare at all, no crossovers, showing how easy the jump was for her.

    And here we have a wonderful 2A with this edge held for a long time and again the set-up is very short:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uIvHWQ7vyY&t=1m52s if this doesn't have the flow and height then I don't know what has...

    All of those above are comparable to Yu-Na but this one is simply superior. A perfect textbook +3 2A with no telegraphed entry, big height and distance, tano variation, wonderful flowing edge in and out of it, good extention of the free leg (this is what Yu-Na lacks) and a difficult/creative exit with those change of edges (Mao used it as well in her Clair de Lune 2A):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQVwA28Jm-w&t=1m41s

    Interestingly, the varied position in the air did not affect the distance covered and spring.

    I'm not saying Yu-Na has a bad 2A or something, it's fantastic but I would just give a tiny edge to Slutskaya.
    How did this thread become about Yu-Na's 2A versus Irina's? I agree that Irina's 2A was terrific. I especially like the one from 1998 Worlds.

    However, to answer the question on what other entrances Yu-Na used--actually, Yu-Na has had a variety of short entrances following a jump, spiral sequence, or step sequence, including but not limited to:

    Short set-up, after 3S: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...xLU4mIc#t=224s
    Short set-up, after spiral sequence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...I13vt3g#t=107s
    Short set-up, after footwork: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...lEXO8FY#t=211s
    And, very nice extension on this 2A, with the edge held a long time, out of an Ina Bauer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...i-YWzWw#t=101s

    My guess is actually that Irina's use of the 2A with the short entrance inspired Yu-Na, but I don't have any evidence for that. Just a guess since Irina is one of the (many) skaters that Yu-Na liked.

  8. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartek View Post
    Irina would never bother to do such combos because she didn't need them under 6.0. Did anyone actually land axel combinations like 2A+3T in the old system?
    Empress Ito used to do 2A-3T and 2A-Lo-3Sal all the time. Irina wouldn't be able to land them anyway, her combo is horrendous.

  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Empress Ito used to do 2A-3T and 2A-Lo-3Sal all the time. Irina wouldn't be able to land them anyway, her combo is horrendous.
    Hahaha, out of all adjectives in the world you pick horrendous to describe Irina Slutskaya's jumps. Are they as horrendous as Kostner's inconsistency?

    Irina landed a HUGE 3T+3T at 1998 Olympics which indicates that she would be easily capable of landing an easier 2A+3T.

  10. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee View Post
    How did this thread become about Yu-Na's 2A versus Irina's? I agree that Irina's 2A was terrific. I especially like the one from 1998 Worlds.

    However, to answer the question on what other entrances Yu-Na used--actually, Yu-Na has had a variety of short entrances following a jump, spiral sequence, or step sequence, including but not limited to:

    Short set-up, after 3S: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...xLU4mIc#t=224s
    Short set-up, after spiral sequence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...I13vt3g#t=107s
    Short set-up, after footwork: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...lEXO8FY#t=211s
    And, very nice extension on this 2A, with the edge held a long time, out of an Ina Bauer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...i-YWzWw#t=101s

    My guess is actually that Irina's use of the 2A with the short entrance inspired Yu-Na, but I don't have any evidence for that. Just a guess since Irina is one of the (many) skaters that Yu-Na liked.
    Thank you for that! I especially like the 2A from Danse Macabre right after the spiral sequence. But you see, the height is rather ordinary when compared with Irina's double axels.

    I didn't remember Yu-Na extending her leg so nicely like in 2009 Worlds FS. I wish she did that more frequently.

  11. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Sorry, but that is an extremely telegraphed 2A... she skates almost a full half-circle in the middle of the ice. But the actual jump itself though is great and superior to most, including a lot of Kim's 2As... +2 in my books, +3 if it didn't have the telegraphing.
    Oh that's right, she starts gaining speed near the board and lands the jump near the opposite board. This would do better I think, from the Olympics:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJKs2kaJlyc&t=1m43s

  12. #207
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    Why on earth is Slutskaya even a discussion topic in this thread. Sorry it makes no sense to be arguing her for pages upon pages to a thread that even indirectly in no way involves her. Who is a better skater between Slutskaya and Kostner (which based on credentials and achievements is Slutskaya by a country mile but anyway) has no bearing to what kind of threat (if any) Kostner or Asada are to Kim in Sochi, which is more of a threat, who is more likely to do better in Sochi between the two.

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    Mao just got beat at the WTT by not only Ashley but Gracie. If she doesn't nail the 3axel and continues to struggle with her other triple jumps she's vulnerable for next season not just to the veterans but to the youngsters like Gracie and Adelina who both beat her at the WTT.

  14. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    Mao just got beat at the WTT by not only Ashley but Gracie. If she doesn't nail the 3axel and continues to struggle with her other triple jumps she's vulnerable for next season not just to the veterans but to the youngsters like Gracie and Adelina who both beat her at the WTT.
    Mao appeared to be skating while injured at WTT. Overtraining her current layout while constantly practicing 3A must have taken its toll at this point in the season. Medaling at the Olympics will be all about peaking at the right time and using this summer wisely.

  15. #210
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    I try to thinking differently...

    I realized that in WC Mao's FS score was her personal best; broke the record of 6 years ago in this article..
    http://www.nikkansports.com/sports/n...3-1111756.html
    within this article, she was surprised that Fs score was the personal best score.
    although It was not the perfect program for her. (3a 2foot, 3F<, 3lz 'e', 3F+2lo<+2lo)
    Now she seem to have a larger potential to raise score than when she was young

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