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Thread: Who can rival Kim in Sochi: Asada or Kostner?

  1. #46
    Tripping on the Podium
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    No one can rival Yu-Na in Sochi, no worries on that.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krislite View Post
    I don't get this mentality. She's not depriving anyone of a gold medal. The OGM is open to anyone who skates the best during the games. Should we blame Michelle Kwan for depriving a generation of skaters of a world title? How greedy she took five world titles and nine national titles for herself instead of sharing the wealth!
    One doesn't mean it literally, of course. Anyone who wins as decisively as YuNa does deserves it. If she comes back in at the top, as she just did, then she's the top skater. But I'd love for Mao to win a gold of her own as well. Thats perfectly natural for a fervent fan, and I'm happy to say I'm a fervent fan of both these ladies.

    In the same way, I always wanted Michelle to win an OGM in her years. One has one's favorites. I don't hate Sarah or Tara for "seizing" it from its rightful owner. Just as I'd love Davis and White to win the next OGM...but if Virtue/Moir win it, it will be because they're splendid on that night. As a dancer friend of mine, a big Michelle fan, said of Tara in 1998, "Sometimes the magic happens for one person." That's life, and the ice is slippery.

  3. #48
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    Michelle Kwan prevented Irina Slutskaya from being a 5 or 6 time World Champion which despite being an Irina fan gives me shivers, from Elena Sokolova becoming a World Champion, and from Sasha splatting her way to every U.S title from 2000 onwards (the only year Sasha did performances worthy of a U.S title in 2006 she easily won it). For that alone she should be blessed. It is not like she was ever preventing any really great skaters from doing something that they were worthy of, other than Chen from winning her 2nd World title in 1996.

    Kim on the other hand is preventing some great and truly worthy skaters from achieving more. Mao Asada is a phenom who by rights should be an Olympic Champion once or twice already, but due to Kim's Vancouver rampage and silly age rules is a 0 time, and now down to her last chance to do it. Carolina Kostner is a wonderful and gorgeous skater who should be a multi World Champion, but because she competes with Kim and Asada she is only a 1 time thus far. Joannie Rochette is another great skater who should be atleast a 1 time World or Olympic winner but having to compete against Kim, Asada, and even Ando and Kostner as well, that didnt happen for her. Ando is a multi World Champion but due to Kim and Asada she will retire with no Olympic medals. However all these skaters were better for having had to compete against her.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Kim on the other hand is preventing some great and truly worthy skaters from achieving more. Mao Asada is a phenom who by rights should be an Olympic Champion once or twice already, but due to Kim's Vancouver rampage and silly age rules is a 0 time, and now down to her last chance to do it. Carolina Kostner is a wonderful and gorgeous skater who should be a multi World Champion, but because she competes with Kim and Asada she is only a 1 time thus far. Joannie Rochette is another great skater who should be atleast a 1 time World or Olympic winner but having to compete against Kim, Asada, and even Ando and Kostner as well, that didnt happen for her. Ando is a multi World Champion but due to Kim and Asada she will retire with no Olympic medals. However all these skaters were better for having had to compete against her.
    Isn't that just the nature of any sport, though? Kim is not preventing Mao, Kostner, or Rochette from getting their OGM. They have not skated clean when they needed to, but Kim did, and won her medals rightfully. If the other skaters want to "achieve more", then they have to skate clean at important events (worlds, olympics) like Kim does. By your logic, any dominating athlete should be prevented from competing if that sport category has other worthy athletes (and only when there are other worthy athletes?), which would not make any sense. All the other skaters you mentioned are great and amazing skaters, but gold medals are not given to athletes based on their entire career, it's based on that specific performance at each event.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by ellelee View Post
    Isn't that just the nature of any sport, though? Kim is not preventing Mao, Kostner, or Rochette from getting their OGM.
    Well beating Kim in Vancouver was impossible for any of those skaters, no matter how well they skated, so yes she basically did. However I agree with the rest of your post.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Well beating Kim in Vancouver was impossible for any of those skaters, no matter how well they skated, so yes she basically did. However I agree with the rest of your post.
    This doesn't make any sense.

    If other ladies in Vancouver had 3Lz/3T, 3F and 2A plus level 4 on spins plus skated as fast as Yuna did w/ transitions in and out of every jump w/ the height & distance Yuna got on her jumps, they could have scored as big as Yuna after SP. If they'd skated LP as well as Yuna did they could've won. But they did not do so -- maybe they couldn't skate / jump like that or whatever -- but Yuna did not stop them from copying her layout or skating fast or going clean.

    If Mao could capitalize on the SP 3A rule and skated her programs clean, she could've won the worlds this year. It is not Yuna's fault she popped her jumps or double-footed 3As (even tho it earned + GOE in SP). Yuna did not prevent CaroK or Mao from going clean. You can't even claim psychological effect of Yuna going clean in LP as she was the last skater of the competition.

  7. #52
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rallycairn View Post
    I do wonder if there will be any more COP scoring changes that will favor layouts like Mao's though (women's triple axel, etc.)? I still see YuNa as the clear favorite, regardless, but that is one factor I don't think has been brought into the discussion.
    That's a very important point. Although, I think the more likely IJS changes to impact this and all other competitions are what they'll do in response to Patrick Chan's illegitimate win at the recent worlds. I would not be surprised if much heavier penalties are instituted for falls. If that were to happen, Carolina would be the one most likely to get hit, as she's the most prone to falls. Yuna also has freak falls. Mao is pretty good at staying on her feet, though. So if such a version of IJS were to be implemented, it would increase Mao's chances of gold, significantly decrease Carolina's, and put the pressure on Yuna to execute yet another perfect competition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    That's a very important point. Although, I think the more likely IJS changes to impact this and all other competitions are what they'll do in response to Patrick Chan's illegitimate win at the recent worlds. I would not be surprised if much heavier penalties are instituted for falls. If that were to happen, Carolina would be the one most likely to get hit, as she's the most prone to falls. Yuna also has freak falls. Mao is pretty good at staying on her feet, though. So if such a version of IJS were to be implemented, it would increase Mao's chances of gold, significantly decrease Carolina's, and put the pressure on Yuna to execute yet another perfect competition.
    Actually, has Mao fallen even once this season? As far as I remember her errors include popping, two-footed landings or underrotation but she simply hasn't been falling for a number of seasons. This is owing to her PERFECT air position; she is always absolutely straight in the air like 90 degree to the ice. Interestingly, she's gained this ability under Sato. Around Vancouver she used to sligthly lean in the air on her triple axles.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadia01 View Post
    This doesn't make any sense.

    If other ladies in Vancouver had 3Lz/3T, 3F and 2A plus level 4 on spins plus skated as fast as Yuna did w/ transitions in and out of every jump w/ the height & distance Yuna got on her jumps, they could have scored as big as Yuna after SP. If they'd skated LP as well as Yuna did they could've won. But they did not do so -- maybe they couldn't skate / jump like that or whatever -- but Yuna did not stop them from copying her layout or skating fast or going clean.

    If Mao could capitalize on the SP 3A rule and skated her programs clean, she could've won the worlds this year. It is not Yuna's fault she popped her jumps or double-footed 3As (even tho it earned + GOE in SP). Yuna did not prevent CaroK or Mao from going clean. You can't even claim psychological effect of Yuna going clean in LP as she was the last skater of the competition.
    Ah, the way I read Pangtongfan's post, I believe what was meant is that even if the other skaters had skated their programs to the best of their abilities at the time, they would still not have beaten Yuna's performances. This is a true statment, IMO.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robeye View Post
    Ah, the way I read Pangtongfan's post, I believe what was meant is that even if the other skaters had skated their programs to the best of their abilities at the time, they would still not have beaten Yuna's performances. This is a true statment, IMO.
    Yes that is what I meant. I actually think Yu Na in Vancouver was much more unbeatable than Yu Na in Sochi. The gap between her and the field has closed somewhat I feel. However is it close enough to be in striking distance for Kostner or Asada is the topic at hand, and quite an interesting one to discuss.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Michelle Kwan prevented Irina Slutskaya from being a 5 or 6 time World Champion which despite being an Irina fan gives me shivers, from Elena Sokolova becoming a World Champion, and from Sasha splatting her way to every U.S title from 2000 onwards (the only year Sasha did performances worthy of a U.S title in 2006 she easily won it). For that alone she should be blessed. It is not like she was ever preventing any really great skaters from doing something that they were worthy of, other than Chen from winning her 2nd World title in 1996.

    Kim on the other hand is preventing some great and truly worthy skaters from achieving more. Mao Asada is a phenom who by rights should be an Olympic Champion once or twice already, but due to Kim's Vancouver rampage and silly age rules is a 0 time, and now down to her last chance to do it. Carolina Kostner is a wonderful and gorgeous skater who should be a multi World Champion, but because she competes with Kim and Asada she is only a 1 time thus far. Joannie Rochette is another great skater who should be atleast a 1 time World or Olympic winner but having to compete against Kim, Asada, and even Ando and Kostner as well, that didnt happen for her. Ando is a multi World Champion but due to Kim and Asada she will retire with no Olympic medals. However all these skaters were better for having had to compete against her.

    LOL. "splatting her way to every single title."

    The fact is, Mao lost her best chance for Olympic gold in 2006.



    Also, if both Mao and Carolina skate cleanly (no URs or DGs). I could see each of them scoring 145+ for a LP.

    So, Mao and Carolina could rival Yu-Na. They just need to bring it.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartek View Post
    Actually, has Mao fallen even once this season? As far as I remember her errors include popping, two-footed landings or underrotation but she simply hasn't been falling for a number of seasons. This is owing to her PERFECT air position; she is always absolutely straight in the air like 90 degree to the ice. Interestingly, she's gained this ability under Sato. Around Vancouver she used to sligthly lean in the air on her triple axles.
    No. Mao did not fall, not even once this season. I do recall her falling last season, though only once or twice, I think. Mao's air position has dramatically improved, and if you compare just air position, they are way better than any other skater inc. Yuna and Caro. Caro used to have really scary looking air positions. They were quite bad, and that's why she's prone to falling. I think she has improved a great deal, but it's still fairly loose.

  13. #58
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Kim on the other hand is preventing some great and truly worthy skaters from achieving more. Mao Asada is a phenom who by rights should be an Olympic Champion once or twice already, but due to Kim's Vancouver rampage and silly age rules is a 0 time, and now down to her last chance to do it. Carolina Kostner is a wonderful and gorgeous skater who should be a multi World Champion, but because she competes with Kim and Asada she is only a 1 time thus far. Joannie Rochette is another great skater who should be atleast a 1 time World or Olympic winner but having to compete against Kim, Asada, and even Ando and Kostner as well, that didnt happen for her. Ando is a multi World Champion but due to Kim and Asada she will retire with no Olympic medals. However all these skaters were better for having had to compete against her.
    Worst. Reasoning. Ever.

    Also, Ando doesn't have an Olympic medal because her performances at the Olympics have been crap. If Kim and Asada didn't exist, she still would have been off the podium in 2010.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Worst. Reasoning. Ever.

    Also, Ando doesn't have an Olympic medal because her performances at the Olympics have been crap. If Kim and Asada didn't exist, she still would have been off the podium in 2010.
    She would be third.

    Probably second if the other 2 are not there. Her PCS would rise enough.

  15. #60
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Her PCS wouldn't rise for that performance. Lepisto's would, though, because she would have been considered more of a challenger. Rachael Flatt also would have gone into that Olympics as a World medalist in this fantasy scenario and she would have placed above both of them to begin with if her 3Flips hadn't been given very questionable < calls, which they probably wouldn't have had her reputation been higher.

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