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Thread: Who can rival Kim in Sochi: Asada or Kostner?

  1. #121
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    Why everybody has changed the subject??

    To be beaten is absolutel Yu_Na's responsibility.
    If she can menage to do her programmes clean, nobody will challange her!

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    I agree but the judges really like Kostner; she is like Patrick Chan - great pcs and quality though I think Chan is comparatively stronger still the judges acknowledge those skills. True she is not a natural artist.
    I disagree about her not being a natural artist. She's certainly matured over the years, and artistically I think she's the finest to watch of the women at this point in time. However, I don't think that should justify her getting propped up in PCS over better technical performances. Her PCS cushion is in double digits over Li, Sotnikova, Tuktamysheva, etc. which forces the latter to max their technical game and execute it cleanly when Kostner can (like Chan) have subpar performances but still be granted enough PCS to stay ahead of them, which is wrong. At least Yu Na is getting comparable PCS, so when she skates her technically superior programs cleanly, there's no matching her - even with Kostner's artistic ability.

    Kostner would have to skate cleanly at the Olympics in both programs and with better technical content than she's had in years ... internationally, putting together two clean programs (heck, even a clean SP + a FS with minor errors) is not something she's been particularly known for or capable of as of late. Jenny Kirk brought up an interesting point that she gets so into her programs that she loses focus and makes costly errors (her errors are often the most CoP-unfriendly, such as falls or turning triples to doubles/singles).

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I disagree about her not being a natural artist. She's certainly matured over the years, and artistically I think she's the finest to watch of the women at this point in time. However, I don't think that should justify her getting propped up in PCS over better technical performances. Her PCS cushion is in double digits over Li, Sotnikova, Tuktamysheva, etc. which forces the latter to max their technical game and execute it cleanly when Kostner can (like Chan) have subpar performances but still be granted enough PCS to stay ahead of them, which is wrong. At least Yu Na is getting comparable PCS, so when she skates her technically superior programs cleanly, there's no matching her - even with Kostner's artistic ability.

    Kostner would have to skate cleanly at the Olympics in both programs and with better technical content than she's had in years ... internationally, putting together two clean programs (heck, even a clean SP + a FS with minor errors) is not something she's been particularly known for or capable of as of late. Jenny Kirk brought up an interesting point that she gets so into her programs that she loses focus and makes costly errors (her errors are often the most CoP-unfriendly, such as falls or turning triples to doubles/singles).
    When I said that Kostner artistic look force and not natural, I means that in her skating since 2010, she doesn't look to skate with passion and her heart. So, to me her presentation look really telegraph and it doesn't look strong to me.

    I enjoy more the Kostner who skate with attack and passion in 2007 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XX1kxQLMsw
    I was a fan of her in thoses times, but today it's like that she knows that she will always have automatically her high PCS cushion so that she doesn't push herself like before.

    Yet a Kostner before the 2010s were caliber to beat Yu-Na Kim, but not the new Kostner telegraph and fear of not pushing her skating into her high level.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by coolboogie22 View Post
    When I said that Kostner artistic look force and not natural, I means that in her skating since 2010, she doesn't look to skate with passion and her heart. So, to me her presentation look really telegraph and it doesn't look strong to me.
    I enjoy more the Kostner who skate with attack and passion in 2007 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XX1kxQLMsw
    I was a fan of her in thoses times, but today it's like that she knows that she will always have automatically her high PCS cushion so that she doesn't push herself like before.
    Yet a Kostner before the 2010s were caliber to beat Yu-Na Kim, but not the new Kostner telegraph and fear of not pushing her skating into her high level.
    Seriously? She doesn't skate with passion and her heart? She knows she will always have high PCS automatically and doesn't push her skating onto a higher level? I am sorry but that's almost an insult to a skater like Carolina.

    If you mean she doesn't push herself on the technical side - check again. She had to take her lutz and flip out during the 2010/2011 season due to injury. She was only allowed to put those jumps back in slowly and look at where she is today - she reincluded her 3lz (which not a lot of people expected her to do), she also reintroduced her 3f3t and all of her jumps are textbook quality. She is 26 years old and still tries to push herself on the technical side of skating. She deserves some credit for that.

    If you mean she doesn't push herself artistically - please ckeck again too. From 2010/2011 onwards, she has consistently come up with innovative programs, always challenging herself trying out different styles, skating to rather unconventional music & using contemporary choreography. She really is one of the rare skaters to have developed her own style and pushing boundaries in terms of choreography.

    Her skating might not be your cup of tea but saying she doesn't skate with passion/heart and that she is not pushing herself relying on a PCS cushion is ridiculous.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by jiggs View Post
    Seriously? She doesn't skate with passion and her heart? She knows she will always have high PCS automatically and doesn't push her skating onto a higher level? I am sorry but that's almost an insult to a skater like Carolina.

    If you mean she doesn't push herself on the technical side - check again. She had to take her lutz and flip out during the 2010/2011 season due to injury. She was only allowed to put those jumps back in slowly and look at where she is today - she reincluded her 3lz (which not a lot of people expected her to do), she also reintroduced her 3f3t and all of her jumps are textbook quality. She is 26 years old and still tries to push herself on the technical side of skating. She deserves some credit for that.

    If you mean she doesn't push herself artistically - please ckeck again too. From 2011/2012 onwards, she has consistently come up with innovative programs, always challenging herself trying out different styles, skating to rather unconventional music & using contemporary choreography. She really is one of the rare skaters to have developed her own style and pushing boundaries in terms of choreography.

    Her skating might not be your cup of tea but saying she doesn't skate with passion/heart and that she is not pushing herself relying on a PCS cushion is ridiculous.
    Agreed and I'm not even a particular fan of her skating. All these accusations of this skater or that skater not skating with passion or heart are unfounded. Each skater out there, competing at the level they do, have to in some way or other be passionate, be motivated, have heart. Otherwise they just wouldn't skate. Being or striving to be a top caliber athlete isn't the easier choice.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Who can rival Yuna in Sochi: Mao or Carolina?
    Nobody can.

    When I've seen Yuna's FS at Worlds, I told just after her skating "If her total score will not be 20-30 points higher than other leaders, judges are stinkies".
    We all know that judges were good - her score is 20,42 higher than 2nd place.

    Yuna is so much better than any other competing female skater that they have not any chance.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexRus View Post
    Yuna is so much better than any other competing female skater that they have not any chance.
    I wouldn't necessarily say she is so much better but she is certainly a much, much, much better competitor. If she keeps her nerves of steel no one can probably touch her, yes.

  8. #128
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    Not saying Yuna isn't mentally strong, but her clean skate at Worlds is more of a result of her insane level of technical polish to absolute perfection.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverFish View Post
    I don't understand how he's past his technical peak when he's been upping the tech content every season.
    yes and with it falling and failing to complete it more and more. That is not technical progression, sorry. You must be the first one I heard yet, including the overly zealous Chan fanboys who actually think all his marks and placings are deserved, who deny he went on a MASSIVE techinical decline this year. He hasnt had a single performance this season anywhere close to say his 2011 Canadians or 2011 Worlds efforts, or even his 2012 Canadians efforts. His Grand Prix final performances and World performances and even Skate Canada performances, particularly from a technical standpoint, were both much poorer than last years, and last years werent anything great. He is technically on decline (and to a lesser degree artistically too). His peak is already in the past. He cant even win an event against a decent international field anymore without it being a raging controversy it seems.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moment View Post
    Not saying Yuna isn't mentally strong, but her clean skate at Worlds is more of a result of her insane level of technical polish to absolute perfection.
    It's both. Remember she had far fewer actual competitions this season than either Mao or Carolina, so she had fewer chances to get into the competitive mindset. Also she started training later than most (and after a whole year off), so she also had less time to polish her programs and her jumps this season. Yuna mentioned in an interview that her jumps had gotten more consistent in practice than before, which is very surprising as you'd expect it to be less after a long break. I think that, too, had a lot to do with her confidence in the LP.

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    Regarding the person who mentioned Li as an outside threat to Kim, I love Li but at this point she is Kim lite but without any of the reputation yet. Her LP at Worlds was outstanding and should have scored over 130 but didnt. In the event I HAD to pick someone outside of the big 3 as a threat to Kim it would be Gold since technically I could see her being close to on par with Kim on a good day, and while she doesnt have that strong of PCS the judges like her and give her already generous PCS, she has a strong federation fully behind her, and I see the potential to be a decent artist and greatly improve her PCS at some point. I certainly dont see Osmond, Murakami, Sotnikova, Tuktamysheva, or Wagner as a threat to Kim even on her worst day and their absolute best.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Regarding the person who mentioned Li as an outside threat to Kim, I love Li but at this point she is Kim lite but without any of the reputation yet. Her LP at Worlds was outstanding and should have scored over 130 but didnt. In the event I HAD to pick someone outside of the big 3 as a threat to Kim it would be Gold since technically I could see her being close to on par with Kim on a good day, and while she doesnt have that strong of PCS the judges like her and give her already generous PCS, she has a strong federation fully behind her, and I see the potential to be a decent artist and greatly improve her PCS at some point. I certainly dont see Osmond, Murakami, Sotnikova, Tuktamysheva, or Wagner as a threat to Kim even on her worst day and their absolute best.
    A threat to Kim in Sochi? I'm afraid that's too soon unless Kim makes mistakes, or if you're thinking beyond Sochi.

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    Gracie is no match to Yuna in TES even when she lands all her jumps. She can do a 3Lo thus a higher planned BV (although her 3Lo is one of her weakest and most inconsistent), that's her only advantage. Where does the fantasy about her being such an amazing jumper come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krislite View Post
    It's both. Remember she had far fewer actual competitions this season than either Mao or Carolina, so she had fewer chances to get into the competitive mindset. Also she started training later than most (and after a whole year off), so she also had less time to polish her programs and her jumps this season. Yuna mentioned in an interview that her jumps had gotten more consistent in practice than before, which is very surprising as you'd expect it to be less after a long break. I think that, too, had a lot to do with her confidence in the LP.
    I do agree about that. I think her confidence also comes from her being such an excellent technician.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moment View Post
    Gracie is no match to Yuna in TES even when she lands all her jumps. She can do a 3Lo thus a higher planned BV (although her 3Lo is one of her weakest and most inconsistent), that's her only advantage. Where does the fantasy about her being such an amazing jumper come from?



    I do agree about that. I think her confidence also comes from her being such an excellent technician.
    The fantasy comes from watching Gracie in reality. She jumps as high as Yuna, as fast as Yuna, and has comparable speed across the ice. Yu-Na definitely has her on the consistency front, no one is denying that at this point, however your argument is flawed. If you would have said Gracie is no match for Yuna in PCS, I would tend to agree. However, in TES:

    Gracie has tons better spins.
    Gracie has a better sprial.
    Gracie has comparable jumps (and can even do the loop, something Yuna really can not).
    Yuna has better footwork.

    IMO, Gracie is VERY favorably matched up with Yuna on the technical side, when she lands the jumps. PCs, we can talk.... but they are very comparable on the technical side.

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    Right now if Gold and Kim skated totally clean I think the technical score would be very close, maybe Kim a couple points in front, but that is all. The PCS is where you would see the gulf. However the skaters with the best chance to compete with Kim technically in a hypothetical all clean scenario are Gold, Asada (due only to her huge base value), and to a lesser degree Kostner. On the PCS only Kostner and to a lesser degree Asada can stay in range though. However the thing with Gold is she already gets good (generous) PCS considering the level her skating is at, she is supported by a strong federation who loves her, and judges seem to like her alot too. I also see artistic potential and a huge capacity for growth, and I think in time she will improve alot on the 2nd mark. Now all that coming together in just one year to be a threat to Kim, probably unlikely, but still if I had to pick someone from 4-10 who had a faint hope to challenge Kim at the Olympics she would my first and only choice. It definitely wouldnt be any of the others, there is no scenario I can see Osmond, Li, Wagner, Murakami, or a Russian challenging Kim next year.

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