Frank Carroll interview

This is my favorite interview ever, by anybody! Thank you so much for pointing the link. For once, somebody actually told the truth as they see it. What would you prefer, the "typical" interview like you see on every single celebrity interview show? I can't even watch those things any more. Frank doesn't think Irina was a "beautiful" skater and he said so. He thought politics played a part in the judging of this very subjective sport and he said so. He spoke frankly about problems he had with certain skaters and/or their parents. I didn't think he hit below the belt or said anything inappropriate. If anyone was rude it was Jenny and Dave, who laughed at Irina Slutskaya. Frank's comment was mild and could be taken simply to mean that she was not balletic and graceful (which she wasn't--she was an athletic skater, not a ballerina, and I really miss her and others like her).

I also got the impression that it was him asking for the 5% cut that sent Michelle packing, probably at the orders of her father and agent. It was a big mistake on her part, it may have cost her a gold medal.

Anyway, thanks again. I really enjoyed it.

pointyourtoe said:

You're definitely free to react to Frank's opinions I just wanted to remind everyone that Frank was probably being frank (hehe) in a very informal interview environment and not necessarily trying to be unbiased or make some kind of official indictment against Irina's skills. He was probably speaking as a starry-eyed fan like many of us do without any specific malice, but since he's such a prolific coach it might cause people to raise their eyebrows and take it more seriously than he intended.
And yes, Irina's actions are independent of Frank's but I just wanted to remind everyone so they have all the facts

Personally, I thought Irina was Michelle's greatest rival.

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Thanks for your response. I agree with the above statement about Irina being Michelle's greatest rival. In some way, I think it is quite fitting that they both ended up with the same Olympic medals. Both much-loved in each of their countries, both the inspiration for the following generation.

I understand the point you're making, but the reason I brought that specific case up is that I personally don't think 1996 is truly "controversial", which is why I think it's generous that he even described it that way to begin with. It was a close call, but controversial implies that Michelle robbed Lu Chen or that there was some huge upset like with the recent Ten-Chan debacle. There's probably far better examples of politics working in Michelle's favor than 96 worlds in my opinion.

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I think that whether or not one thinks Frank is being generous by describing 1996 Worlds result as controversial depends on whether one thinks the event is controversial--and a lot of factors go into whether or not the results are seen as controversial. And your definition of controversial may differ from others. Perhaps it's just in the eye of the beholder. (For example, I was there for the men's FS at 2013 Worlds. I don't think many who were there were upset at the results at all. ) At the time, I didn't think Michelle's 96 win was controversial at all, nor did the US media--I had been super excited about Michelle Kwan since she "almost" got to go to 1994 Olympics, and big things were predicted for her even then, so when she won 1996 Worlds, it was like, "She has arrived." I didn't realize until later that for some skating fans and even for some within the skating circle, it was controversial. Within the last year or so, there was a fan report of someone meeting Brian Orser, and for whatever reason, they discussed 1996 Worlds, and his opinion was that Lu Chen deserved to win. So, clearly, it's a competition that at the very least, some skating folks like to keep debating--it's not an open or shut case. I think you are right that there are better examples of politics working in Michelle's favor than 96 Worlds, but when I ask myself if the result would have been different if Michelle skated for China and if Lu Chen skated for the US, I'm not really sure of the answer. In such a close competition the result could've gone either way and one would have a case for either winner. I don't think one can prove that politics played a large part, but it's also hard (for me) to say that it didn't play zero part at all. Maybe it played close to zero--but even a little bit can help in a close competition.

Good controversies are decisions that are so close they could have gone either way, and that fans are able to debate but acknowledge it was a reasonable result even if they disagreed with it. That is Kwan vs Chen in 96 and Kerrigan vs Bauil in 94 are. Then there are disgraceful outcomes like the 2002 pairs, 2012 and 2013 mens, 2002 bronze medal in dance, which tarnish and bring shame to the sport, which are clearly wrong and only a massive uber of said skater would even try and argue, and which cant be reasonably discussed as they are too blatantly obvious. The two categories should not be mixed or matched. There is also the more moderate cases between the two, which most feel strongly are wrong, but not to the level of the last ones I mentioned.

pointyourtoe said:

Figure skating is inherently subjective, even though we try nowadays to make it as technical as possible. When Yuna Kim skates clean, she usually beats the runner up by a huge margin of points. Because of this, many Yuna fans have taken to declaring that Yuna is the best skater in history by a landslide and no one even comes close. Other skating fans may disagree and find that, results aside, speaking purely from a skating standpoint - what judges value may not always agree with what individual fans value. To them, the difference between Mao and Yuna in quality is not so extreme, as they are able to note unique strengths and weaknesses in both skaters. One could make a "fair" argument for either claim - one based on results which show that there is a huge chasm between Yuna's scores and other skaters', vs the other claim that Yuna and Mao are not so far away from one another when you compare individual elements because they each have their own strengths, regardless of competitive results. Skating is subjective.

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Mao and Kim each have advantages over the other if we simply talk about their skating, ignoring mistakes, but because Mao is so much less consistent than Yu Na and makes so many more mistakes, she deservedly loses to her by big point margins most of the time. Because Yu Na is atleast equal to Mao considering their various strengths (when just talking about skating and technical and artistic merits) but is way more consistent and a way better competitor, that makes her on the whole much better as the points indicate. Same could be said about Kostner, although over the course of her career, she is way less consistent than even Mao (not talking about right now).

Frank made very positive comments about non-American skaters including Chen Lu, Maria Butyrskaya and Carolina Kostner, all of whom had competed against Michelle.

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So he made positive comments about skaters who were never any threat to Michelle, and who Michelle always beat in her sleep (apart from the close 96 Worlds where Chen skated out of her skin and still couldnt beat Michelle, and Kostner eking out a way past her prime injured Kwan at the 05 Worlds). What a shock that is, LOL! He should praised Fumie Suguri as well then.

Frank worked with both Lu Chen (when she was younger) and Carolina Kostner. So two of the three he was praising, were all also his skaters.

On the subject of politics, I think that at all levels there is a certain expectation that coaches are supposed to lobby for their students. Even in children's competitions the coach might button-hole a judge and say, "hey, I've got a promising girl in the next group, give her a look." So that skater ends up third instead of sixth. Not because the judge is cheating, but just because the skater in question is doesn't get lost in the shuffle.

I think Frank Carroll was never comfortable in that role, and was not very good at it. As opposed to someone like Carlo Fassi, who relished it.

Sorry for the double post, but I want to thank Frank Carroll for reminding me about Michelle's program to "On My Own."

I'll just leave these here.

http://heatherw.com/mk/pics/omo/9720609.jpg

http://heatherw.com/mk/pics/omo/9720610.jpg

http://heatherw.com/mk/pics/omo/9720611.jpg

http://heatherw.com/mk/pics/omo/9720614.jpg

I always wish Michelle used another singer's rendition of "On my own". That singer is horrendous

Everybody has the right to tell his own opinion. Frank did it. Congratulation!!!

Do we want to have the usual "we just wanted to enjoy ourselves as much as possible out there...." interviews? Blahhh. Dishonesty kills the sport.

pointyourtoe said:

I always wish Michelle used another singer's rendition of "On my own". That singer is horrendous

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I completely agree. Whoever the singer is, is obviously trying to emulate Frances Ruffelle but failed really badly.

Also, Michelle's "On My Own" is probably her worst show number, IMO. I don't know why Frank didn't choose "Fields of Gold", "East of Eden", or one of her many brilliant competitive programs.

As a huge fan of Les Mis the musical, I am really turned off that she was smiling throughout the entirety of a very sad, heartbroken, yearning song. Youth is not an excuse - I fell in love with the story, characters and music when I saw a Broadway production live at 17.

What praise did Frank Carroll give to Maria Butyrskaya? I thought the word he said that came to his mind when Jenny & Dave mentioned her was, "controversial."

prettykeys said:

As a huge fan of Les Mis the musical, I am really turned off that she was smiling throughout the entirety of a very sad, heartbroken, yearning song.

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She was trying to smile bravely through her inner tears. :yes:

Olympia said:

I don't pretend to know what happened, or how anyone won that year. All I can say is that it would have been a much worse injustice if Robin Cousins had lost the gold than it was for Linda Fratianne to be beaten by Annett Potzsche. Both those ladies were excellent but not great skaters. Cousins was one of the best of all time, and Hoffmann was no more than ordinary.

I'm kind of surprised that Cousins isn't talked about more these days. He was an innovative skater, very fluid, with grand jumps. Unlike Evan Lysacek, Cousins made his height work for him in jumps and movements. He also had a long and productive pro career, where he skated to interesting choreography and did some choreography himself. He was a standout at the Landover world pro championships for some years.

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Oh yes, I have to agree. I have to admit that I even prefer Robin Cousins to John Curry (though not by much--they're both wonderful). I remember Cousins doing a program that had almost no jumps or spins but was a paean to edges. And it was just beautiful. No arm flailing for him.

I'm a HUGE Aunt Joyce fan (and I love his written comments--he knows how to bring both the critical eye and the impish snark). Jenny Kirk is improving tremendously with each one of these programs (though please dear, you don't have to end each comment with "And what did you think Dave?"). Give them some time and they will be just a smidge below Dick Button and Peggy Flemming for best skating commentators (along with the EuroSport duo). Though I hope both of them read this because I want to shake the graphic designer up for their site. WHITE SPACE IS YOUR FRIEND. It's so cluttered it makes me feel claustrophobic just to look at it. At least they fixed the problem of having the right column text overlap the video--I watched the entire two videos with text all over Frank's face. Not good. Well one step at a time, right?

Cousins was looser, jazzier, and more cutting-edge (pardon the pun), while Curry was more formal and classical (and perhaps a bit more aloof in terms of performance style). Both were innovators in their way, and I think I tend to prefer whichever one I'm watching at the time! More decisive than that I can't be. And then add Toller Cranston to the mix, and I am completely unable to deliver a verdict.

My goodness. Let's keep this in perspective. It's an Internet talk show. The hosts are going to have different opinions and ideas, just like we do. There's no need to get unpleasant about it. I don't agree with everything Jenny & Dave think, but I'm quite glad they're providing some entertainment for us figure skating fans. If you don't like what they have to say, then don't watch.

prettykeys said:

Also, Michelle's "On My Own" is probably her worst show number, IMO. I don't know why Frank didn't choose "Fields of Gold", "East of Eden", or one of her many brilliant competitive programs.

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If you don't like On My Own, what about Dante's Prayer from the same season?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpogyNs298o

To quote Dick Button, "That's why Michelle Kwan is Michelle Kwan."

I think maybe the reason Frank Carroll choose that year (1997-98) is that here we see Michelle at the very beginning of her period of artistic maturity. Here is the promise of Fields of Gold yet to come.

People talk about 1996 as her year of transformation, but nah. Her Salome was a little girl playing dress-up. 1998 is the real McCoy. :yes:

I miss the character pieces she used to do though. After that she emoted a lot but it was more about being Michelle rather than portraying a character