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Thread: Lysacek expects to compete in Sochi

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    How long has Ten been with Frank Carroll? Ten has been with Carroll shortly after 2010 Worlds. It's been more than three seasons. Finally Ten has broken out at the last event of the third season.

    True that Ten has artistry way above Lysacek has. But don't carry it over too much. I've seen many times Lysacek's skating much more heart pounding and fire filled. If you say that Ten's 2013 World LP was one of the best on Ten's artistry and refinement, then Ten is a hopeless case, because Ten's 2013 LP was very much reserved and nervously done. Lysacek was much better in that except Lysacek doesn't have a quad.
    Right, and give credit where credit is due. Evan is a master of training and that shows in competition. He out worked probably everyone on the ice in the 4 years before Vancouver, and it payed off, as he was super well trained and so, he knew he could handle the pressure, because he'd done that program a zillion times.

    However, this is a different Quad. He's not going up against people like Plushenko, Lambiel, etc. These guys are way above him in talent level, and I can bet you, they match him in their training. Sure, this was a whole lot of messiness at Worlds, but even through the messiness, there was a lot to see in terms of quads and technical content. Also, is Evan going to be as trained as he was in Vancouver,? I don't know. Especially if he re-injures himself, and give the way Evan trains, that's not out of the realm of possibility.

    I put Ten's 2013 Worlds LP to the fact that he hasn't been there, in that pressure situation very many times. However, he handled it pretty dang well. However, I would say we should expect at least THAT (meaning, the level of his 2013 LP) from now on from him... and he should expect it of himself. If you watch Dave and Jenny's interview w/Frank, he says Denis is a very good student, and that's always a positive. Frank will know what to do with him to get him ready. I trust Frank.

    (However, I disagree with Frank, in that I think Evan needs to do a quad in the short and at least a quad in the long if he wants to be competitive. But Frank is Frank, and I am not a world class coach.)

  2. #47
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    Talking about the one quad ten did in the long that he won as a way of saying you only need to do one quad at all is wrong. Ten also did a quad in the short. So you need at least 2. If ten didn't do one in the short- totally different competition. So lysacek does need Quad in the sp and lp. Everyone in the top 10 did that.

  3. #48
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    Yes he'll definitely need that quad toe, triple axel won't be enough in the field of current men.
    Don't think he'll get a medal at Sochi, but we'll have to see how he's looking at events pre-Sochi to find out! Evan could really surprise us..

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffionhanathomas View Post
    Yes he'll definitely need that quad toe, triple axel won't be enough in the field of current men.
    Don't think he'll get a medal at Sochi, but we'll have to see how he's looking at events pre-Sochi to find out! Evan could really surprise us..
    I doubt he makes it out of Nationals, honestly.

  5. #50
    Lifelong Adam Fan KwanIsALegend's Avatar
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    I think if he seriously wanted to make a comeback he would and should have come back this season. I think some skaters just like the hype and press and TV show interviews that come with announcing a big comeback. He is looking more like 2010 Sasha when he should be looking like a 2013 Yuna.
    I don't think his artless arm flapping will win in Sochi, while he has been enjoying the post Olympic limelight his competitors have become stronger and more experienced.

  6. #51
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    Go Evan Go!

    Actually, I'm only mildly interested in his comeback itself, but fascinated by the response to it.

    You would think the guy was a hack without a single worthwhile accomplishment to his name.

    Reigning OGM, Former WC, Former US Champ, Former GPF Champ... in the four year runup to the Olympics he was off the podium ONCE in any competition...

    Whatever anyone might speculate about his chances... and lets be real... we're ALL speculating... I think he deserves a little more respect than what he's getting.

    And, one more thing: The "it's not your turn" crowd needs to follow elementary school playground games, and withhold opinion on sporting events.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by TontoK View Post
    Go Evan Go!

    Actually, I'm only mildly interested in his comeback itself, but fascinated by the response to it.

    You would think the guy was a hack without a single worthwhile accomplishment to his name.

    Reigning OGM, Former WC, Former US Champ, Former GPF Champ... in the four year runup to the Olympics he was off the podium ONCE in any competition...

    Whatever anyone might speculate about his chances... and lets be real... we're ALL speculating... I think he deserves a little more respect than what he's getting.

    And, one more thing: The "it's not your turn" crowd needs to follow elementary school playground games, and withhold opinion on sporting events.


    Honestly, why? I respect what he accomplished, and the fact that he had to work for it. I respect the work ethic, for sure... but he's not some world beater. Also, lets put his career in context: Stephane and Buttle both retired mid-Quad. Stephane came back but it wasn't the same Stephane at that point. Plushenko didn't produce the same form he had in 02 OR 06. He shouldn't have won Nationals in 08.

    He won, I get it., but he won in an extremely watered down field with content that wouldn't have won in 98, 02, or 06.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zschultz1986 View Post
    He won, I get it., but he won in an extremely watered down field with content that wouldn't have won in 98, 02, or 06.
    Quite true. Evan is not the 1998, 2002, or 2006 Olympic gold medalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    ROTFL very well said. Granted mens skating still is at a very low state, which Chan falling 4 or 5 times and winning every event
    5 times = never happened. 4 times = happened once, 3 years ago.

    At the GPF he only fell once and placed 3rd, so clearly he's "still" not winning with 4 falls, and loses with only 1 fall (and when his competitors who place above him also fall, at that).

    But, hey, keep telling yourself that he has 4 or 5 falls and wins every event if it makes you sleep better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zschultz1986 View Post
    He won, I get it., but he won in an extremely watered down field with content that wouldn't have won in 98, 02, or 06.
    Yeah, but in 98 and 02 the guys didn't do nearly as much other content as Lysacek had in his 2010 win. In 06, the guys had to inject more content into their programs because of CoP and you saw way more errors -- other than Plushenko, who still made it about the jumps and didn't bother with difficulty in between (compared to the rest of the field).

    As much as people want to diss Lysacek's 2010 win, it was one of the better programs that managed to incorporate CoP effectively and maximally.

    There are a handful of men who could have won 2010 without quads and beaten Plushenko, but Lysacek was the only one who actually managed to.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Yeah, but in 98 and 02 the guys didn't do nearly as much other content as Lysacek had in his 2010 win. In 06, the guys had to inject more content into their programs because of CoP and you saw way more errors -- other than Plushenko, who still made it about the jumps and didn't bother with difficulty in between (compared to the rest of the field).

    As much as people want to diss Lysacek's 2010 win, it was one of the better programs that managed to incorporate CoP effectively and maximally.

    There are a handful of men who could have won 2010 without quads and beaten Plushenko, but Lysacek was the only one who actually managed to.
    All the 98 2002 2006 guys did quads and quads were necessary to win. Without a quad what was really the difference between Stojko and Candelloro or Eldredge. Why not if everyone was quadless go with Eldredge? And 2002 as well all did multiple quads. 2006 quads were done by all completed or attempted. There was a jump standard of success that Lysacek didn't even attempt and it would have been him an also ran. A total Todd Eldredge if he was LUCKY! Lysacek is no Todd Eldredge. Todd Eldredge had tons of good qualities that Lysacek doesn't have. He really did lots and made it look better. When he said against Stojko jumps aren't everything when he beat him there was more truth there!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    All the 98 2002 2006 guys did quads and quads were necessary to win. Without a quad what was really the difference between Stojko and Candelloro or Eldredge. Why not if everyone was quadless go with Eldredge? And 2002 as well all did multiple quads. 2006 quads were done by all completed or attempted. There was a jump standard of success that Lysacek didn't even attempt and it would have been him an also ran. A total Todd Eldredge if he was LUCKY! Lysacek is no Todd Eldredge. Todd Eldredge had tons of good qualities that Lysacek doesn't have. He really did lots and made it look better. When he said against Stojko jumps aren't everything when he beat him there was more truth there!!
    I'm talking about the field as a whole. Quads back then were necessary to win. Now, they're necessary to place in the top 5. Men are making more mistakes this season, but still getting scores as high as the 2010 Olympics, because they're increasing their overall difficulty.

    I agree that the jump standard was high in 98 and 02, but the overall difficulty of the programs was not nearly as high. If you took the overall field and their capability of doing a quad, there are far more skaters who can land them today (which is expected).

    At the 1998 Olympics, Kulik was the only one with a mastery of the quad. Stojko was his main challenger, but had minor errors and his injury of course. Though they could all land 3As, the quad was still pretty elusive to the rest of the field and as such they weren't nearly up to par to Kulik let alone today's skaters.

    At the 2002 Olympics, Plushenko/Yagudin were the strongest of the field by far, and the rest of the field was totally watered down other than Goebel - a consistent quad technician with a lack of artistry, and Honda who was a Takahashi-type in that he had the potential to beat Plushenko/Yagudin, but needed a clean skate and errors from the top 2. The rest of the field wasn't really quad technicians but there were some solid skates. Jumps-wise, this was probably the best Olympic field to-date.

    At the 2006 Olympics, in the SP, only 5 men of the field landed quads. In the FS, of the top 8 men overall, only Plushenko landed a quad. Along with the 2010 Olympics, there were tons of errors, likely attributed to higher difficulty post-CoP. But the level of skating and other elements (spins, footwork) was wayyy higher than before, thanks to CoP.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I'm talking about the field as a whole. Quads back then were necessary to win. Now, they're necessary to place in the top 5. Men are making more mistakes this season, but still getting scores as high as the 2010 Olympics, because they're increasing their overall difficulty.

    I agree that the jump standard was high in 98 and 02, but the overall difficulty of the programs was not nearly as high. If you took the overall field and their capability of doing a quad, there are far more skaters who can land them today (which is expected).

    At the 1998 Olympics, Kulik was the only one with a mastery of the quad. Stojko was his main challenger, but had minor errors and his injury of course. Though they could all land 3As, the quad was still pretty elusive to the rest of the field and as such they weren't nearly up to par to Kulik let alone today's skaters.

    At the 2002 Olympics, Plushenko/Yagudin were the strongest of the field by far, and the rest of the field was totally watered down other than Goebel - a consistent quad technician with a lack of artistry, and Honda who was a Takahashi-type in that he had the potential to beat Plushenko/Yagudin, but needed a clean skate and errors from the top 2. The rest of the field wasn't really quad technicians but there were some solid skates. Jumps-wise, this was probably the best Olympic field to-date.

    At the 2006 Olympics, in the SP, only 5 men of the field landed quads. In the FS, of the top 8 men overall, only Plushenko landed a quad. Along with the 2010 Olympics, there were tons of errors, likely attributed to higher difficulty post-CoP. But the level of skating and other elements (spins, footwork) was wayyy higher than before, thanks to CoP.
    Non-jump content was more was but there was extreme backlash to abolishing quads for that! Trading quads for more non-jump content was not correct. Spins step sequences are more complicated to get higher values but now there is merger of hardest jumps to go along with that.

    I know Kulik had a quad and Stojko was injured and didn't do it but I was thinking of injured quadless Stojko vs quadless Kulik! Kulik sure had huge jumps and a great triple axel that blew people away so maybe he would have won the technical mark anyway over stojko as well as the second program mark.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I'm talking about the field as a whole. Quads back then were necessary to win. Now, they're necessary to place in the top 5. Men are making more mistakes this season, but still getting scores as high as the 2010 Olympics, because they're increasing their overall difficulty.

    I agree that the jump standard was high in 98 and 02, but the overall difficulty of the programs was not nearly as high. If you took the overall field and their capability of doing a quad, there are far more skaters who can land them today (which is expected).

    At the 1998 Olympics, Kulik was the only one with a mastery of the quad. Stojko was his main challenger, but had minor errors and his injury of course. Though they could all land 3As, the quad was still pretty elusive to the rest of the field and as such they weren't nearly up to par to Kulik let alone today's skaters.

    At the 2002 Olympics, Plushenko/Yagudin were the strongest of the field by far, and the rest of the field was totally watered down other than Goebel - a consistent quad technician with a lack of artistry, and Honda who was a Takahashi-type in that he had the potential to beat Plushenko/Yagudin, but needed a clean skate and errors from the top 2. The rest of the field wasn't really quad technicians but there were some solid skates. Jumps-wise, this was probably the best Olympic field to-date.

    At the 2006 Olympics, in the SP, only 5 men of the field landed quads. In the FS, of the top 8 men overall, only Plushenko landed a quad. Along with the 2010 Olympics, there were tons of errors, likely attributed to higher difficulty post-CoP. But the level of skating and other elements (spins, footwork) was wayyy higher than before, thanks to CoP.

    I disagree the level of skating was higher. It was more intricate, and more demanding, but I would say at the top, the quality has been rather consistent.

    I still say that no one really ever does a proper sit spin anymore. Those broken leg sits are hideous, and are the new Biellman. Camels are just the first positions before a hideous catchfoot. You hardly ever see a full scratch anymore. Footwork was getting more difficult after 02 anyway, but there is a definite difference between 6.0 footwork and CoP footwork.... though honestly, you shouldn't have to do all that extraneous movement to get a level 4, as sometimes it takes away from the program, rather than adds.

    Evan... isn't my cup of tea (obviously, if you've been reading my posts.) He does well to do all those jumps with his body type, but sometimes, when he tried to sell a program, it just... looks funny to me, because of his long limbs. He looks like Stretch Armstrong on skates, to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zschultz1986 View Post
    I disagree the level of skating was higher. It was more intricate, and more demanding, but I would say at the top, the quality has been rather consistent.

    I still say that no one really ever does a proper sit spin anymore. Those broken leg sits are hideous, and are the new Biellman. Camels are just the first positions before a hideous catchfoot. You hardly ever see a full scratch anymore. Footwork was getting more difficult after 02 anyway, but there is a definite difference between 6.0 footwork and CoP footwork.... though honestly, you shouldn't have to do all that extraneous movement to get a level 4, as sometimes it takes away from the program, rather than adds.

    Evan... isn't my cup of tea (obviously, if you've been reading my posts.) He does well to do all those jumps with his body type, but sometimes, when he tried to sell a program, it just... looks funny to me, because of his long limbs. He looks like Stretch Armstrong on skates, to me.
    Quality might have been consistent, but quality with greater difficulty wins any day. Yagudin/Plushenko/Kulik were good all around skaters, and Stojko/Goebel were excellent jumpers, but the intricacy of programs these days is much more difficult. I would take Lysacek's 2010 LP over several of Stojko's performances any day, even the ones with quads.

    As for sit spins being done properly, I agree that some of the positions are hideous (especially the broken legs, which remind me of novice/junior skaters). But spins have far more rotations, greater difficulty with edge changes and core-changes, and at least a variety of positions. I think you could count on one hand the number of different positions performed by the top men at the 1998 or 2002 Olympics, and three of those would probably be camel, sit, upright... and few would be held for more than 2 or 3 rotations.

    I like the challenge of level 3/4 footwork... it forces the skater to demonstrate actual skating skills and turns and integrate it in a way that fits the performance. Yes, for skaters who are poor performers/with poor basics it looks laboured and takes away from the program. But TBH, it's really demonstrates what a quality skater has fundamentally, other than the jumps and spins.

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