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Thread: Lysacek expects to compete in Sochi

  1. #61
    :) aftertherain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zschultz1986 View Post
    Evan... isn't my cup of tea (obviously, if you've been reading my posts.) He does well to do all those jumps with his body type, but sometimes, when he tried to sell a program, it just... looks funny to me, because of his long limbs. He looks like Stretch Armstrong on skates, to me.
    I think there's a certain boundary that taller skaters like Ilia Kulik (5' 11"), Carolina (5' 7"), and Lucinda Ruh (5' 9") have to overcome, and both skaters have done it well. Evan (6' 2"), on the other hand, has yet to find his niche, and I think that it's something he really needs to work on in his process of over-working his body.

    (Though, he is a giant in his sport.)

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Quality might have been consistent, but quality with greater difficulty wins any day. Yagudin/Plushenko/Kulik were good all around skaters, and Stojko/Goebel were excellent jumpers, but the intricacy of programs these days is much more difficult. I would take Lysacek's 2010 LP over several of Stojko's performances any day, even the ones with quads.

    As for sit spins being done properly, I agree that some of the positions are hideous (especially the broken legs, which remind me of novice/junior skaters). But spins have far more rotations, greater difficulty with edge changes and core-changes, and at least a variety of positions. I think you could count on one hand the number of different positions performed by the top men at the 1998 or 2002 Olympics, and three of those would probably be camel, sit, upright... and few would be held for more than 2 or 3 rotations.

    I like the challenge of level 3/4 footwork... it forces the skater to demonstrate actual skating skills and turns and integrate it in a way that fits the performance. Yes, for skaters who are poor performers/with poor basics it looks laboured and takes away from the program. But TBH, it's really demonstrates what a quality skater has fundamentally, other than the jumps and spins.
    Well, I was never a Stojko fan. However, I do think Evan gives everything he has in his performances, which I appreciate (though as I said, he often looks odd when selling programs, to me, and it makes it look like he is forcing it, which, the hallmark of a great skater is to make it look like you're not trying at all).

    I like the challenge of level 3/4 footwork too... however, the spins are a different question. A lady doing a really, good, one position layback is something sorely missed, as are scratch spins. I just don't see the need for 17 changes of position in a spin, unless it is apt for the music, or youre doing a combination spin. Nothing will look better than a camel held-out, in the proper arabesque position (Ala Curry), or a layback like Nikodinov or Sarah Hughes or Sasha. This needs to be changed to allow people the freedom to do simpler, yet beautiful positions in the spins. Sure, hold them for more revolutions, and be more centered than 6.0, but sometimes, less is more.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by zschultz1986 View Post
    Well, I was never a Stojko fan. However, I do think Evan gives everything he has in his performances, which I appreciate (though as I said, he often looks odd when selling programs, to me, and it makes it look like he is forcing it, which, the hallmark of a great skater is to make it look like you're not trying at all).

    I like the challenge of level 3/4 footwork too... however, the spins are a different question. A lady doing a really, good, one position layback is something sorely missed, as are scratch spins. I just don't see the need for 17 changes of position in a spin, unless it is apt for the music, or youre doing a combination spin. Nothing will look better than a camel held-out, in the proper arabesque position (Ala Curry), or a layback like Nikodinov or Sarah Hughes or Sasha. This needs to be changed to allow people the freedom to do simpler, yet beautiful positions in the spins. Sure, hold them for more revolutions, and be more centered than 6.0, but sometimes, less is more.
    I agree about the spins... maybe if you're a good spinner, go for the intricate and nice positions... if you're a poor/ugly spinner, do basic positions, but hold them for longer revolutions. I honestly don't think good spins are given enough credit under CoP, but also agree that some spinners make their spins look horrible -- especially when you're waiting for a skater to do 8 revolutions or they do a strained Biellmann for a level that amounts to just 0.3-0.5 points higher.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by zschultz1986 View Post
    Well, I was never a Stojko fan. However, I do think Evan gives everything he has in his performances, which I appreciate (though as I said, he often looks odd when selling programs, to me, and it makes it look like he is forcing it, which, the hallmark of a great skater is to make it look like you're not trying at all).

    I like the challenge of level 3/4 footwork too... however, the spins are a different question. A lady doing a really, good, one position layback is something sorely missed, as are scratch spins. I just don't see the need for 17 changes of position in a spin, unless it is apt for the music, or youre doing a combination spin. Nothing will look better than a camel held-out, in the proper arabesque position (Ala Curry), or a layback like Nikodinov or Sarah Hughes or Sasha. This needs to be changed to allow people the freedom to do simpler, yet beautiful positions in the spins. Sure, hold them for more rev olutions, and be more centered than 6.0, but sometimes, less is more.
    Stojko had one advantage over others - he sold and beleived his programs and love it or hate it - it was natural and not forced. EVan's interpretation and performance was as genuine as his tan okay mean; but yu get the idea. It is not innate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    Stojko had one advantage over others - he sold and beleived his programs and love it or hate it - it was natural and not forced. EVan's interpretation and performance was as genuine as his tan okay mean; but yu get the idea. It is not innate.
    I agree that he sold his programs and the conviction was there, but the problem was Stojko's artistry itself was rather forced. His success resulted from being primarily a technical skater who was consistent, but his programs didn't have much content beyond the jumps and he didn't really project to the audiences. That being said, he certainly deserved his World titles and arguably the 94 Olympic Gold, and I laud him for being passionate about the sport aspect of figure skating (the jumping aspect, to be accurate) and pushing the sport technically. Unfortunately I think this conflicted with his efforts to be more graceful and emotive.

    I think a skater being "genuine" is a matter of interpretation, and really shouldn't be held against them. They're athletes, not actors.

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    Stojko was an amazing skater and great champion. He is probably the best jumper in the history of the sport, was a fabulous spinner, had outstanding footwork, a unique and unconventional style, and he skated with heart and passion. He dominated for many years a super deep mens field that included Browning, Eldredge, Kulik, Urmanov, amongst others. He revolutionized the sport both with by taking technical skating to a new level, and by allowing for more masculine styles to be accepted in the mens event again. He was the ultimate competitor, winning an Olympic silver on a pulled groin, something nearly nobody else would have even competed with, let alone landed 8 triples with. Skaters like Evan and Patrick will only be remembered for winning a few titles over super weak fields, where their competitors had alot of mistakes, and due to bad and controversial judging which will likely lead to alot of future changes in COP. They arent a patch on Stojko's legacy and respect level in the sport.

    Whereas someone like Patrick Chan was able to win 3 World titles and 0 Olympic medals with the benefit of being the most overscored, held up, and politically pushed skater in history according to most observers and experts, Stojko had all the odds against him and still managed to win 3 World titles and 2 Olympic silvers. Just to think had he been scored and treated fairly he more likely would have had something like a combined 7 or 8 World or Olympic titles (the same way if the same were true of Patrick he would only have 1). As for Evan Lysacek when one looks up generic champion in the dictionary there will be a picture of him right alongside Annett Poetzsch (even remember her name all these years later most of you, yeah I didnt think so).

  7. #67
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    Stojko forcing music seemed like if he skated to classical. He did Bruce lee movie music and gladiator and the drums. He was not forcing himself into music that didn't fit him. His choices were really controversial and widely unaccepted but he wasnt going to skate to like Rossini? If he was forcing himself with Bruce lee all music was forced and there would not be any music that wasnt forced.

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    He forced the judges and the skating community to accept there was more to figure skating than a man dressing up in a blouse or dress to skate to Swan Lake or Mozart. Not that there was anything wrong with that, but it was refreshing to see a man skate like a man for once, and show that a more masculine style of skating should be accepted. Of course he was still hammered drastically by judges in artistic scores for it most of his career, which just shows how insanely great he was to achieve what he achieved, and still more than what Patrick Chan has achieved with the judges overscoring him by 20-30 points per competition and giving him atleast a 4 falls worth of mistake cushion on the field before an event even begins.

    Another difference is back then the Canadian skating federation was weak politically which is why alot of our skaters were constantly screwed- Stojko, Bourne & Kraatz, Sale & Pelletier, Josee Chouinard, Karen Preston, Sargeant & Wirtz. Of course those skaters are of varying abilities but all were undermarked and underplaced numerous times relative to what they deserved. Our skaters used to have be much better than the rest to get what they deserved. Now it is the opposite, the CSA is probably the strongest political federation out there today and our skaters are given inflated scores and gift marks on a regular basis.

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    It's very admirable how he never went to someone like Lori nichol and skated to scheherezade just to fit in better! Lol!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    It's very admirable how he never went to someone like Lori nichol and skated to scheherezade just to fit in better! Lol!
    He had his own vision and he stuck to it. He was true to himself and his beliefs, and never catered to the judges just to get more points and more medals. A true champion!

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    He forced the judges and the skating community to accept there was more to figure skating than a man dressing up in a blouse or dress to skate to Swan Lake or Mozart. Not that there was anything wrong with that, but it was refreshing to see a man skate like a man for once, and show that a more masculine style of skating should be accepted.
    He skated "Firebird" in a black costume with black feathers; it was like the opposite of Mao Asada's "Swan Lake" costume. And he skated to "Scheherazade" in a black outfit with glittering snakes.

    I don't think he was stretching any boundaries significantly--other skaters played larger roles in that. Skating-wise, I didn't find him any more "manly"/"masculine"/whatever you want to term it compared to his rivals either.

    Maybe he's the "man your man could smell like." Who knows?

  12. #72
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    "he" in ptf post meant stojko not lysacek. Lysacek is the total model of following every single convention in program design in every way with no deviation from the norms in any way and no showing of any individuality lest you offend anyone in being too individual.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    "he" in ptf post meant stojko not lysacek. Lysacek is the total model of following every single convention in program design in every way with no deviation from the norms in any way and no showing of any individuality lest you offend anyone in being too individual.
    Yes I meant Stojko in my post. Your assessment on Lysacek is 110% correct. Evan has never done anything too individual, interesting, or daring, that much is very true.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I agree that he sold his programs and the conviction was there, but the problem was Stojko's artistry itself was rather forced. His success resulted from being primarily a technical skater who was consistent, but his programs didn't have much content beyond the jumps and he didn't really project to the audiences. That being said, he certainly deserved his World titles and arguably the 94 Olympic Gold, and I laud him for being passionate about the sport aspect of figure skating (the jumping aspect, to be accurate) and pushing the sport technically. Unfortunately I think this conflicted with his efforts to be more graceful and emotive.

    I think a skater being "genuine" is a matter of interpretation, and really shouldn't be held against them. They're athletes, not actors.
    SOme might say Katarina Witt was more of an actress than a skater.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Stojko was an amazing skater and great champion. He is probably the best jumper in the history of the sport, was a fabulous spinner, had outstanding footwork, a unique and unconventional style, and he skated with heart and passion. He dominated for many years a super deep mens field that included Browning, Eldredge, Kulik, Urmanov, amongst others. He revolutionized the sport both with by taking technical skating to a new level, and by allowing for more masculine styles to be accepted in the mens event again. He was the ultimate competitor, winning an Olympic silver on a pulled groin, something nearly nobody else would have even competed with, let alone landed 8 triples with.
    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    He forced the judges and the skating community to accept there was more to figure skating than a man dressing up in a blouse or dress to skate to Swan Lake or Mozart. Not that there was anything wrong with that, but it was refreshing to see a man skate like a man for once, and show that a more masculine style of skating should be accepted.
    I think you're referring to European skaters, particularly the theatrical ones. There were plenty of masculine skaters (Orser, Elredge, Browning, Wylie) before him and during him. He elevated the sport technically, but his artistry was never there. It's unfortunate that he was so concerned with "butching it up" on ice, that it actually resulted in losses once the rest of the field started landing quads consistently. I just wish he had made more of an effort to push himself artistically. Although it seemed every time he tried, it just looked awkward and it would often be at standstills instead of incorporated to the actual skating. Plenty of skaters could skate manly but still have artistry like Eldredge, Browning, and Orser. Stojko was on the other end of the spectrum. Like Joubert, his comfort zone was in manly movie soundtracks, and like Plushenko his strength was in his jumps/consistency and not skating ability.

    Also, he was not a "fabulous spinner" by any stretch (did pretty much basic positions and his camel was poor), his footwork was entertaining and fast (he had excellent speed in general) but not difficult in terms of complexity or edges, and Plushenko is obviously the best jumper in history. Stojko is one of my idols and is to be hugely respected for his jumping ability and pushing the sport technically with the quad. But he would have been hammered under CoP because his actually skating ability wasn't anything to shake a stick at. Chan and Lysacek are much more well-rounded skaters than Elvis ever was (and likely could be), even if they pale in comparison to him, technically.

    As for his "super deep field" of competitors, Elredge was strong but never got a handle on the quad (or even attempted it much), Urmanov wasn't a Worlds threat or any threat until he actually won the 94 Olympics (a win at Euros, a CSF win, and a bronze at Worlds were his other major accolades), and the same can be said for Kulik (who had a World silver, and an Olympic title, an CS win) who wasn't exactly a Worlds threat either. Browning was the only one who really challenged him, but faltered at the 94 Olympics, and peaked long before Stojko.

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