Can Evgeni Plushenko win the 2014 Olympic title? | Page 26 | Golden Skate

Can Evgeni Plushenko win the 2014 Olympic title?

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Joined
Jan 25, 2013
The CoP argument was to actually quantify just how much more jump content Goebel had in the overall competition over Plushenko, in both segments. It also shows how grossly held up Plushenko was in the SP, placing 4th after a fall and no combination. If anything, he's lucky the 2002 Olympics was pre-CoP because no matter how much PCS he was given by the judges, he would have been buried in the SP, and likely would have lost the LP to Goebel considering his jump disadvantage. Only under 6.0 would he get 5.9 technical merit for a stepout and a doubled jump, not to mention 5.9's for artistry in his SP when that fall was brutal.

That's why I put in parentheses the actual counting of triples and quads. To me, 3 quads and 6 triples is worth much more than 2 quads and 6 triples, particularly when one of the quads was executed in the second half. The 5.4's for presentation and putting him behind Honda in the FS were especially pathetic. When theatrics wins over pure athleticism how can you even call it a sport?

I do agree with gmyers that the 3A-3F sequence doesn't account for how difficult it is to incorporate that 3F after a 3A. I wonder why Plushenko no longer attempts the 3F in his program and just does a simple 2A, when clearly he's been able to execute it easily in the past. But to be fair, that would have been worth 14.3 points, which is a really high amount for a non-quad element. I think he was rewarded with that, because clearly it made up for his other errors and he scored 5.8/5.9 for technical merit.
 

drivingmissdaisy

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Feb 17, 2010
To me, 3 quads and 6 triples is worth much more than 2 quads and 6 triples, particularly when one of the quads was executed in the second half. The 5.4's for presentation and putting him behind Honda in the FS were especially pathetic. When theatrics wins over pure athleticism how can you even call it a sport?

Aside from the difficulty of the jumps, Goebel did nothing else particularly well. To say Goebel with an extra quad > Plushenko is like saying Reynolds with an extra quad > Chan.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Wait! Yagudin was boo-ed in SLC? In fact Goebel is OGM?

How did it happen that no one noticed that for 11 years until CSG and Mathman brought it up.

Oh geez, Yagudin had yet to skate. :rolleye: It was Plushenko's standing was booed for being higher -- considering he fell in the SP and doubled a salchow in his FS while Goebel did one quad more than him, the boos aren't exactly unsurprising. Those 5.4's for artistic impression certainly didn't help either. No matter what Goebel did technically (and save for a step out on the axel, he did everything) the scores show that there was no way they would give Evgeni anything less than silver.

Nobody "noticed" that because Yagudin wiped the floor with Plushenko and the rest of the competition, and deserved gold, so nobody cared about where Plushenko and Goebel placed. (Notice how Chan winning over Ten was a big deal, but the Germans error-packed freeskate being ahead of the two clean Canadian pairs wasn't a big deal this year.) You said yourself, it's the gold that matters. Yagudin was king of the ice, and Plushenko and Goebel didn't matter.

Goebel's Olympic FS still stands as the most technically demanding program ever skated. 3 quads and 2 triple axels haven't been executed since. The only skaters I can picture even attempting that these days are Hanyu (2 quads, 2 axels), Reynolds (three quads - maybe 4 if he gets the 4L - one axel) or Fernandez (3 quads, 1 axel ... could be 2 axels if he didn't repeat the 3S). It's shameful that such a superb skate was considered practically on par technically with a skate that had multiple jump errors, had one less quad, had no creativity or intricacy going into his jumps, and had a 2A and 2S as the final two jumps.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Aside from the difficulty of the jumps, Goebel did nothing else particularly well. To say Goebel with an extra quad > Plushenko is like saying Reynolds with an extra quad > Chan.

Goebel had good spins and transitions going into his jumps, as well as a balanced program. He also maintained decent speed all throughout. What did Plushenko do well, then? His program had a lot of breaks, two footed skating, and was front loaded. Waist up, he was great -- his expression was good and he did maintain good character throughout (artistically it's my favourite Olympic FS of his), but his choreography on the blades itself was painfully simple without any complexity or creativity.
 

let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
Oh, geez, then why nobody really remembers Goebel. Neither fans nor general public nor sponsors. And even trolls like yourself remember him, and Yagudin as well, only when the name of Plu shows up? :laugh: The losers' fate who always feed from someone else's fame.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Precisely why we don't see much of quad combos anymore, especially in SP. Because it costs the same points as to do a single quad and then a lutz combo in SP.

There are lots of skaters who do or have opened with quad combos in the SP ... Chan, Joubert, Reynolds, Song... practically all the Russian men capable of it - Voronov, Gachinski, Menshov, Plushenko.

There are advantages to practicing a quad-triple combo - because it's not a solo jump, you don't require intricate steps going into it. Also, should you mess up your lutz, you get deducted for no combo and there's no opportunity to add in a combination to make up for that. If you mess up a quad, at least you can tack it on to your 3Z.

Of course, there is an advantage in that if you attempt the 3Z+3T in the second half, you get a bonus. But you also supposedly get a PCS boost for attempting the hardest combo (I know people say that shouldn't affect PCS, but if a man does a solo 3Z or a solo 3S, obviously the judges will regard the lesser difficulty). In terms of creating a first impression it says "Look, I just did the hardest combination. Notice me." It does take some focus to execute the 3-3 later in the program too, and some guys just like getting it done right off the bat.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Jan 25, 2013
Oh, geez, then why nobody really remembers Goebel. Neither fans nor general public nor sponsors. And even trolls like yourself remember him, and Yagudin as well, only when the name of Plu shows up? :laugh: The losers' fate who always feed from someone else's fame.

You asked who Plushenko has robbed off a medal, bringing up that Chan has robbed people of gold or silver. So I provided an instance where I believe Plushenko robbed somebody of silver, an instance that others believe too.

Why do you just assume I'm trolling when you don't even look up the context of the statements I make? Please, do try to come up with an original response that doesn't use your typical words: zamboni, homologation, or predict the impending doom of the sport.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Wait! Yagudin was boo-ed in SLC? In fact Goebel is OGM?

How did it happen that no one noticed that for 11 years until CSG and Mathman brought it up.

Yagudin was not booed. He hadn't skated yet. The booing from the home crowd fans was for Goebel's low marks (down to a 5.4).

Goebel did not come close to winning the gold medal. Yagudin got all first place ordinals and four 6.0s, including one from the U.S. judge. (There was no Russian judge on the panel.)

My recollection was about the tinkering that the ISU did with the CoP base values in the next year, the 2002-2003 season, when they used the "interim system" while they worked the bugs out of the proposed CoP. Using Yagudin's convincing win as a model (among many other competitions that they mock-scored), this helped the ISU brain trust to calibrate the appropriate base values for elements in future seasons.

Anyway, that's what I remember from discussions of the CoP in the 2002-03 and 2003-04 seasons. If your memory of these discussions is different, that is no justification for gratuitous sarcasm.
 

let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
So I provided an instance where I believe Plushenko robbed somebody of silver, an instance that others believe too.
You are not answering the question, which is rather typical for a demagogue. If what you are saying is true, which again is not but that's besides the point, then why the names of Goebel and Yag get remembered only when the name of Plu shows up? :laugh:

If your memory of these discussions is different, that is no justification for gratuitous sarcasm.
Same argument here. If your memory is different, that is no justification for ... whatever. Yawn.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
But "have" you mean when he zambonis the ice with his butt, like in Stupid WTT? :laugh: No argument on this "have".

No, I mean "have" as in the 98 points SP that he did at Worlds 2013 that is the current Guinness World Record, and the best Short Program to have ever been executed by the field today. :clap:

I'd pity you and your jealousy of him, if it weren't so hilarious to see how angry you get when he continues to do well. :)
 

let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
No, I mean "have" as in the 98 points SP that he did at Worlds 2013 that is the current Guinness World Record, and the best Short Program to have ever been executed by the field today. :clap:

I'd pity you and your jealousy of him, if it weren't so hilarious to see how angry you get when he continues to do well. :)
Just that? 98 points, the ones that he would have never got for that skating if WC were not in Canada? Oh wait. It also comes to Jim Pattison Group, which currently is Canada's 3rd private company which happens to own through steps Guiness World Records? Yeah. That does explain why they didn't give "Guiness WR" to Plu or Dai or Hanyu when they ALL hit the same stuff in SP. They gave it only to the Canadian Chan :laugh:. Gosh. If Guiness WR is now your only argument available, then no, I don't pity you. You are not jealous of anyone. You are simply doing your job. Because no one would agree to embarrass him/herself the way you do free of charge. It's hillarious to see how angry you get because you are obviously not doing your stuff well enough. Otherwise no one would have noticed that. :biggrin:
 

phaeljones

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 18, 2012
Just that? 98 points, the ones that he would have never got for that skating if WC were not in Canada? Oh wait. It also comes to Jim Pattison Group, which currently is Canada's 3rd private company which happens to own through steps Guiness World Records? Yeah. That does explain why they didn't give "Guiness WR" to Plu or Dai or Hanyu when they ALL hit the same stuff in SP. . . . . QUOTE]

Thank you for the clarification. :popcorn:

Back to earth, and the thread, there is an issue of whether the scoring situation is going to be addressed by ISU so that (back to the thread) other skaters like Plushenko (and Hanyu, Takahashi, Ten, Fernandez, Reynolds) are going to feel like they are getting a fair shake. The issue is then that even if Plushenko skates perfectly, are the judges going to give him the score he deserves.

Regarding Chan, he may be the greatest skater, but he is cacking. It may be more of a mental issue (time zone, stage fright syndrome, personal) looking at the total picture (skating, interviews, moving to Detroit). Perhaps moving to Detroit and training there will let him regain that sense of wholeness he used to be able to bring to his skating. But it has to be clear to the ISU that if Chan cacks again, and other skaters, be they Plushenko, Hanyu, Ten, Fernandez, Reynolds or anyone else, gets shafted, and the scoring isn't seen to be properly administered, not only are Plushenko, Hanyu, Ten, Fernandez, Reynolds out of the running, so is skating as a sport. The Olympics is the last straw.

Interesting comments above about whether the Olympics are just about the medals. Surely, they are not, especially if they are watched in the moment. After this year, as a Canadian, Reynolds coming in fourth to seventh would mean more to me than Chan winning gold. Great sport is when people rise above themselves. Plushenko to win a medal will have to rise above a lot. He is coming off surgery, and he has age issues. If he was to win any medal, that would surely be an "Olympic moment".

There are so many skaters in the men's that are getting better faster to peak at the Olympics. Looking just at Hanyu and Ten and where they are at their ages (people so often comment that it took Ten so long to prove himself, but he is only 19), surely it is not a question of whether they will surpass Chan but when, and whether it will be as early as Sochi. That is not just an issue for Chan, but Plushenko has to wade into that.

The aspect of Plushenko though is that he seems to be bigger than life. His image is and his skating has been up to now as well. If anyone can pull a rabbit out of the hat, given the obstacles that have to be overcome, this is probably the person. But it would be great for the Olympics, for that special moment, if he just shows.
 

venlac

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Regarding Chan, he may be the greatest skater, but he is cacking. It may be more of a mental issue (time zone, stage fright syndrome, personal) looking at the total picture (skating, interviews, moving to Detroit). Perhaps moving to Detroit and training there will let him regain that sense of wholeness he used to be able to bring to his skating. But it has to be clear to the ISU that if Chan cacks again, and other skaters, be they Plushenko, Hanyu, Ten, Fernandez, Reynolds or anyone else, gets shafted, and the scoring isn't seen to be properly administered, not only are Plushenko, Hanyu, Ten, Fernandez, Reynolds out of the running, so is skating as a sport. The Olympics is the last straw.

No... :rolleye:
 

plushyfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Country
Hungary
CSG, you are funny, indeed...:yes: No one questioned Plush's second place in 2002, probably except Thimothy's parents.:) On Youtube the people was used Tim's program to protect the gold of Evan, not because Plushy's silver was undeserved. Plushy's artistic impression is so much higher than Timothy's.
(Evan's defenders were wrong, because they thought Evan won with artistry scores- they believed in the anti Plush campaign - not with technical points. Otherwise, if the Youtube was mentioned Plush clearly won there in 2010.)
In figure skating history Plush landed for the first time 3A-3F and 4T-3T-3Lo(so) combinations in SLC.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
CSG, you are funny, indeed...:yes: No one questioned Plush's second place in 2002, probably except Thimothy's parents.:) On Youtube the people was used Tim's program to protect the gold of Evan, not because Plushy's silver was undeserved. Plushy's artistic impression is so much higher than Timothy's.
(Evan's defenders were wrong, because they thought Evan won with artistry scores- they believed in the anti Plush campaign - not with technical points. Otherwise, if the Youtube was mentioned Plush clearly won there in 2010.)
In figure skating history Plush landed for the first time 3A-3F and 4T-3T-3Lo(so) combinations in SLC.

And in the first time in history Goebel landed 3 quads in a FS and 4 quads over the course of the competition, which to me is much more impressive (not that a 3A-3F or 4-3-3, even with stepout, aren't impressive themselves). Plushyfan, you always refer to people's comments in Youtube videos as evidence of how much people love Plushenko. So in Youtube videos where the comments talk about Goebel deserving silver all of a sudden those comments don't mean anything?
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Just that? 98 points, the ones that he would have never got for that skating if WC were not in Canada? Oh wait. It also comes to Jim Pattison Group, which currently is Canada's 3rd private company which happens to own through steps Guiness World Records? Yeah. That does explain why they didn't give "Guiness WR" to Plu or Dai or Hanyu when they ALL hit the same stuff in SP. They gave it only to the Canadian Chan :laugh:

It doesn't have to go through Guinness... it is the highest score ever recorded for a man. And what was your excuse for when he got the record in 2011 Worlds, which wasn't on Canadian ice? And the records for total score and highest FS score aren't on Canadian ice - he got them in Russia ... so what's your excuse for that? He doesn't need Guinness to recognize that they're World records, everyone already does that anyways since they know basic math and what numbers are higher than other numbers. ;)
 

ciocio

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 27, 2010
And in the first time in history Goebel landed 3 quads in a FS and 4 quads over the course of the competition, which to me is much more impressive (not that a 3A-3F or 4-3-3, even with stepout, aren't impressive themselves). Plushyfan, you always refer to people's comments in Youtube videos as evidence of how much people love Plushenko. So in Youtube videos where the comments talk about Goebel deserving silver all of a sudden those comments don't mean anything?

Even I agree that Tim could have been awarded the silver medal that night, considering his great LP and Plushenko's errors, plushyfan has a point about some FS fans trying to use the 2002 outcome against Plushenko and suddenly discovered Tim was "robbed".
Let's not forget Plushenko beat Goebel in 1997 at JWC when Tim had a quad and Plushenko didn't. He also beat him in 2003 at WC with some technical errors in LP.
Lysacek and Chan didn't invent the wheel!:laugh:;) Let's talk will probably say PLushenko wasn't falling as much as Chan, but hey, FS has evolved since 2002-2003. :popcorn:
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
No one questioned Plush's second place in 2002, probably except Thimothy's parents.:)

And Scott Hamilton and many many casual fans who don't watch figure skating until Olympics who have heard what Scott Hamilton said.

Scott even speculated who was going to win the Olympics after Yagudin finished his LP. And said it was a "tough call" among Yagudin, Plushenko, and Geobel. He has hinted that Geobel might win over both Yagudin and Plushenko. Also, many have questioned Plushenko's fourth place finish over many clean skaters in SP after a bad fall.

However, people don't have any clue why Plushenko was held up in SP, do they? Except that Plushenko had been a better skater with better results in the past competitions over the skaters he beat in SP.;) That was 6.0. That was the one many loved more than CoP.:biggrin:

I should point out my position though. I have no love for Geobel's robotic skating. The final placement at 2002 Olympics was just what I've wanted. Even though I have wished Plushenko to be the second, I still don't have clue why he was placed in fourth in SP. That's my pet peev for 6.0.
 
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