Can Evgeni Plushenko win the 2014 Olympic title? | Page 29 | Golden Skate

Can Evgeni Plushenko win the 2014 Olympic title?

ciocio

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 27, 2010
True! Very exciting times! Yagudin was indeed a very popular skater and I think he still is, but now Plushy grabs the attention because he's still competing.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
I think it has a lot to do with what country you skate for; there are some diehards out there:) for popularity.
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Yeah maybe like a Point more for putting those together! Or maybe like a halfway point style multiple.

:laugh: So you want skaters, such as Patrick Chan, who has steady quad combo win more convincingly than before?:popcorn:

But if anyone knows every programs of Plush, SP's, LP's, exhibitions, it is clear that Plush is better in all aspects of skating.

You cannot really compare a skater whose career has unfortunately been cut short with a skater who has a longlasting career. I've seen almost all Plushenko's programs. Yagudin was definitely better in artistic abilities, in posture, and in emotion. Plushenko is better in jumps compare with Yagudin. One thing I do know is that they both are like ironman. I adore both of them, and so do many other skating fans!
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
^ IMHO it is still up to the skaters. I don't think Pushenko will get extra points just for showing up and being Plushenko. He will have to skate for it.

Same with Chan, If he skates his best, he will get high PCS no matter what country is in. But I think the judges will not be generous with PCS if he falls and flubs. I do not expect that the ISU and the judges will let anyone back into the gold medal. They are certainly hoping that at least someone brings his A game so they don't have to just give the OGM away.

This is going to be a big ask considering the guys are now attempting more difficult programs as a whole... 2 quads and 2 axels is much harder to execute when you've got complex spins, harder choreo/transitions, and footwork to think about. I'm hoping the OGM winner is clean or near clean (whoever he is), but I'm anticipating errors given the pressure of the event and inconsistencies in the field as a whole. In the past season, nobody has been truly consistent... not that it would matter because next season some skaters might be more or less consistent than this past season. I think certain skaters though have planted the idea of being of being a gold medal favourite though in this past season, like Hanyu and Fernandez, and others have positioned themselves as potential medal threats like Ten, Reynolds, and a returning Plushenko.
 

let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
It doesn't have to go through Guinness... it is the highest score ever recorded for a man. And what was your excuse for when he got the record in 2011 Worlds, which wasn't on Canadian ice? And the records for total score and highest FS score aren't on Canadian ice - he got them in Russia ... so what's your excuse for that? He doesn't need Guinness to recognize that they're World records, everyone already does that anyways since they know basic math and what numbers are higher than other numbers. ;)
Hahaha! A demagogue's cowardness at its lousy end. First, he brought himself the WGR with pride as some worthy trophy. Then, when it turned out that the current WGR is a curruped institution owned by a Canadian company that gives its awards based entirely on nationalistic bias, i.e only to the Canadain Chan but never gave it Plu, Dai or Hanyu when they hit the record, CSG hypocritically dismissed his own argument of WGR :laugh:. It's unbelievable how somebody can be so silly. The best part is that he needs excuses for Chan's win in 2011 too, the only of his WC titles that wasn't questioned by the community. Poor Patrick. His fans make him look like an idiot. :p
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
OK, new question, sort of. . . It is assumed that judges are encouraged to be friendly to the Olympic host country's skaters, which would give Plushenko a political advantagee. We can also assume that the judges are all aware of the criticism they have received this season for Chan's high PCS. So how many points can we expect as an "adjustment" to the PCS scores between Chan (- ?) and Plushenko (+?), regardless of how well they skate?

None. The scoring system does not have major changes this coming season comparing it with the last season. I believe the judges have heard the criticism about Patrick Chan, but they have believed that they had scored him correctly.;) So don't count on it. ...One thing you can do. That is to be prepared to make even bigger fuzz after Sochi Olympics.:laugh:

As of Plushenko, I believe the judges will be kind to him for the respect they pay to the host country like always, like in Vancouver.;) But he will be marked down if he cannot deliver as expected. What they marked down on Plushenko will be well stand without controversy. What they didn't mark down, which either you or anyone believe they should have marked down, will be so vague that anyone could defend them.:p
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Yup, I'm sure the judges believed they scored him correctly at Worlds because of how they placed him in the FS, because they credited Ten's great performance with a huge SP score and a huge freeskate score (ranked comfortably higher than Chan's) that was 21 points higher than his previous PB. Not to mention, Ten doubled two triples, and Chan had a lead in the SP. To the crowd and fans it matters that Ten won (and he should have), because visibly he was much better than Chan in the LP, but points-wise it wasn't going to amount to Ten winning. I think the judges are also fine with it because it was Denis Ten, who had never had decent results until that point -- and if a known top competitor like Hanyu/Fernandez/Takahashi had skated as well as Ten but still lost to Chan, the judges would have a lot more to answer for (it isn't right, but it tends to be the way things are with consistently inferior skaters who suddenly skate exceptionally well).

I doubt Chan will get lower PCS because of Worlds (and one assumes he and the other guys won't skate as poorly as at Worlds in Soch); I predict his PCS will probably be low-40's SP/low 90's FS for decent skates and 44-45 & 93-94 for clean skates). If Plushenko does a quad in his SP I can picture him scoring about about 43-44 points for PCS (so a few points higher than Euros 2012 where he had no quad in an otherwise clean SP), and getting about 91-92 points for PCS if he has a clean FS with two quads. I don't think the judges will give Plushenko 45+ PCS in the SP and 94+ PCS in the FS just because he's on home ice.

What will hold back Plushenko from getting maxed out PCS should he go clean is the fact that, unlike Euros 2012 (where his main competitors were Gachinski and Brezina and an inconsistent Fernandez), in Sochi Plushenko would be competing against skaters who have better programs and consistently better PCS than him (including a much improved Fernandez compared to 2012), so the judges will accordingly not max out his PCS even if he goes clean and others have yet to skate, because there's the potential for others to skate better (to use 6.0 rhetoric, they give him 5.9 for presentation because a clean Takahashi/Chan could top that... or they give 5.9 for technical elements because a clean Fernandez/Reynolds should get 6.0 technically).

It's not like when Yagudin was his only real competition -- there are about 4 or 5 skaters who have the potential to be technically superior and/or have higher PCS that could push Plushenko off the podium should they skate well. Thus, him actually winning gold is even less of a chance unless all of those other guys bomb (which actually happened in Van 2010 -- a cleaner Takahashi could have pushed him to 3rd, and a clean Lambiel/Chan would have pushed him off the podium). One thing he does have over the other guys though is his consistency, so he could possibly go cleaner, but these days a cleaner program isn't necessarily a win if your competitors have higher scoring potential and thus more buffer room for errors than you do.
 

plushyfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Country
Hungary
True! Very exciting times! Yagudin was indeed a very popular skater and I think he still is, but now Plushy grabs the attention because he's still competing.
Yagudin was very popular, but Plushy was also very popular in 2002. Maybe you know the North-American poularity, only. And of course, Yagudin is very popular now, but Plushy is more popular, your explanation is false. Plushy is competing, yes, one year two competitions ;)
 

plushyfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Country
Hungary
You cannot really compare a skater whose career has unfortunately been cut short with a skater who has a longlasting career. I've seen almost all Plushenko's programs. Yagudin was definitely better in artistic abilities, in posture, and in emotion. Plushenko is better in jumps compare with Yagudin. One thing I do know is that they both are like ironman. I adore both of them, and so do many other skating fans!

OK. Everybody has own opinion. ;) For me, Yag is an amazing skater, but Plush is a genius.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
This is going to be a big ask considering the guys are now attempting more difficult programs as a whole... 2 quads and 2 axels is much harder to execute when you've got complex spins, harder choreo/transitions, and footwork to think about. I'm hoping the OGM winner is clean or near clean (whoever he is), but I'm anticipating errors given the pressure of the event and inconsistencies in the field as a whole...

I think someone could pull a Lysacek. Scale back to a program that the skater can actually skate and win by delivering the goods. If everyone falls on their multiple quads and gets flummoxed by their complex spins, transitions and choreography, that will give Olympic figure skating a black eye. I believe that the figure skating establishment is shooting itself in the foot by turning ever inward (where it loves itself) instead of outward (where it is fading from public interest).
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I think someone could pull a Lysacek. Scale back to a program that the skater can actually skate and win by delivering the goods. If everyone falls on their multiple quads and gets flummoxed by their complex spins, transitions and choreography, that will give Olympic figure skating a black eye. I believe that the figure skating establishment is shooting itself in the foot by turning ever inward (where it loves itself) instead of outward (where it is fading from public interest).

It's tricky... obviously the guys can scale back and everyone skates clean and the highest artistic guys win, and figure skating maintains a pristine public image. Someone like Takahashi can do no quad (since it gives him issues) and two triple axels or Chan can do two quads and no triple axel (since it gives him issues). The "general public" audience will just see that they stayed on their feet -- if a skater with 7 triples and 1 double axel goes clean, it will be regarded by the public as a "better program" than a skater with 3 quads and 6 triples, who falls once ("if they fell, they should be ranked lower, right?"). Even though a knowledgable skating audience would acknowledge the 2nd skater had way more difficulty and, even with a fall, they would likely regard that program much higher.

So then the question becomes, should skaters do clean programs to get the approval of the audience or should they attempt difficult programs that challenge themselves and move the sport along, even if it poses greater risks to not skating clean?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Historically, Olympic Gold Medalists have skated difficult programs that challenged themselves and moved the sport along, while skating cleanly and with attention to artistry and with crowd-pleasing performance values. It would be sad to think that the sport has devolved to the point where now only one or the other, but not both, are possible -- a point where the Olympic Gold Medal is decided by whether we decide to deduct one point or a point-and-a-half per fall from the winner's total.
 

vlaurend

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 14, 2008
It's tricky... obviously the guys can scale back and everyone skates clean and the highest artistic guys win, and figure skating maintains a pristine public image. Someone like Takahashi can do no quad (since it gives him issues) and two triple axels or Chan can do two quads and no triple axel (since it gives him issues). The "general public" audience will just see that they stayed on their feet -- if a skater with 7 triples and 1 double axel goes clean, it will be regarded by the public as a "better program" than a skater with 3 quads and 6 triples, who falls once ("if they fell, they should be ranked lower, right?"). Even though a knowledgable skating audience would acknowledge the 2nd skater had way more difficulty and, even with a fall, they would likely regard that program much higher.

So then the question becomes, should skaters do clean programs to get the approval of the audience or should they attempt difficult programs that challenge themselves and move the sport along, even if it poses greater risks to not skating clean?

And the next question is, can Chan predict what he's going to fall on in any given competition and just take it out of the program? ;) At Worlds, he fell on a 3Lz, and he has been known to fall on transitional moves. . .
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Historically, Olympic Gold Medalists have skated difficult programs that challenged themselves and moved the sport along, while skating cleanly and with attention to artistry and with crowd-pleasing performance values. It would be sad to think that the sport has devolved to the point where now only one or the other, but not both, are possible -- a point where the Olympic Gold Medal is decided by whether we decide to deduct one point or a point-and-a-half per fall from the winner's total.

People on both sides complain; some don't like that clean, less difficult programs win (Lysacek) while others don't like difficulty with multiple falls winning (Chan). The guys that skate clean programs don't "skate" well enough to challenge Chan, like Dennis.

For me, I'd like to see the good skating and difficulty rewarded only when the skater skates clean. For example, I'd don't like that a skater can get -2 GOE for a fall just because he did a difficult entrance. He should get the full penalty, and only get rewarded if he completed the element successfully. I think if the sport moved towards rewarding clean skates, you would see skaters like Chan taking out some of the difficulty to focus on completing clean triples and quadruples. I'd love to see that, whereas others I think prefer the difficult transitions regardless of how the technical elements are performed.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I think that Chan should remove transitions leading into his lutz to focus more going into it. Although I think there are a few other skaters who have in the past year had trouble with lutzes occasionally like Hanyu and Plushenko. It's a simple adjustment and probably a focus thing (like when skaters turn jumps to doubles). All of these guys can do 3Z in their sleep (for a while Chan actually had such a solid lutz that he would make it part of his 3S series). I think these are some freak circumstances that will be ironed out come Sochi when skaters will be more focused and not let silly errors happen as often as they have. Particularly with Chan his errors have been mainly on easy things - like his 2A or a spin... simple things that aren't due to him being unable to execute them, but because he loses the focus to do so. I think Chan's losses and close calls this season will be a welcome wake up call for him... I anticipate him being much more determined and focused in Sochi.

Historically, Olympic Gold Medalists have skated difficult programs that challenged themselves and moved the sport along, while skating cleanly and with attention to artistry and with crowd-pleasing performance values. It would be sad to think that the sport has devolved to the point where now only one or the other, but not both, are possible -- a point where the Olympic Gold Medal is decided by whether we decide to deduct one point or a point-and-a-half per fall from the winner's total.

Actually I think it's because the sport has evolved that it's rarer to see a performance that has exceptional jumping difficulty but intricate choreography and spins, but still selling a performance. That's the challenge of skating these days. For a while men shied away from quads and focused on having to improve other areas of their skating, and I think now the guys are more on par with each other. Of course, we want to see a clean Olympic Gold Medal skate, but with the difficulty that is now the standard, it really comes down to who gets it together, whereas in the past you could picture several skaters going clean, and then it comes down to the better performance and smaller details like stronger spins/footwork being secondary factors distinguishing similarly jumped programs.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I guess my problem is that I do not particularly appreciate the idea of doing something in a difficult way just so I can say that I did it in a difficult way. If I hopped on one foot to work tomorrow, that would be difficult. But I would not expect praise for doing so. In skating, there are many ways to make something harder to do. Please don't, OK? ;) Just do your quad; don't do it out of a head stand for an extra 0.25 CoP points.
 

LRK

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
I guess my problem is that I do not particularly appreciate the idea of doing something in a difficult way just so I can say that I did it in a difficult way. If I hopped on one foot to work tomorrow, that would be difficult. But I would not expect praise for doing so. In skating, there are many ways to make something harder to do. Please don't, OK? ;) Just do your quad; don't do it out of a head stand for an extra 0.25 CoP points.

Hear, hear!
 
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