Can Evgeni Plushenko win the 2014 Olympic title? | Page 10 | Golden Skate

Can Evgeni Plushenko win the 2014 Olympic title?

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Titles don't mean everything. Janet Lynn and Toller Cranston never won Worlds, but their interpretation and artistry and skating skills are some of the best ever.

Min/Goebel/Li/Van Der Perren were all jumpers purely and their artistic ability paled in comparison to their technical ability, and to the artistic ability of the rest of the field. Even when they skated clean they wouldn't win because of their lack of artistry. Again, Plushenko isn't devoid of artistry... but it's not really a fair fight to pit him against guys who are known jump technicians. Just like it's not a fair fight to bring up Plushenko's record against Fernandez, when really it was the 2011-2012 season Fernandez started to blossom and 2012-2013 season that he actually became a consistent contender among the big guys.

Fernandez had improved in 2012 but by no means was he a huge threat to Plushenko... he placed 6th at those Euros and 9th at Worlds that year. Do you honestly think Plushenko would have won Euros this year the way Javier skated, even if he weren't injured and went clean? The reason I bring up Fernandez is because he's clearly a threat to Plushenko in Sochi, and PCS-wise, Fernandez has surpassed Plushenko in some respects. If you're using their last head to head as an indication of who's better, there's a lot that has happened since then. Even if Javier had skated his best he still would have probably lost to Plushenko at Euros 2012... his PCS has grown tremendously this year, and it's this year that he's truly surpassed people like Plushenko and Joubert and Amodio in terms of skating quality and choreography.

I should also say that I think pre-IJS Plushenko had better programs and interpretation than post-IJS-to-2010 Plushenko. It seems that when CoP was introduced, Plushenko focused on what earned him points -- the jumps -- and having been established he was bound to get high PCS if he simply delivered a clean program, regardless of the inbetween content (because none of the other guys other than Yagudin could match him technically). This was the period his programs declined artistically, IMO -- I mean, look at the first minute of both of his 2006 and 2010 Olympic programs... it's literally just basic stroking between jumping passes one after another. His 2002 Olympic FS to Carmen was better artistically than his 2006 or 2010, in my opinion, and he seemed more into the character of the program instead of focusing on checking off a jump list. I really wish Yagudin had stayed on, or Buttle had a quad, or Lambiel was more consistent with his 3A, or Takahashi peaked sooner because they could have absolutely pushed Plushenko to improve his PCS and we could have seen his 2012 Euros PCS ability sooner (and he'd likely have a second Olympic gold if it had happened).


1-Why? That is basically all Plushenko was doing by what you write. What about Goebel Vs. Plushenko 2003?

2-In PCS Fernandez has surprassed Plushenko? The last time they went head to head in FS it was 2012 and Fernandez was just as much of a frotrunner as he was in 2013 and Fernandez bombed. I don't have any doubts that if Plushenko skated the way he did against the way Fernandez skated PLushenko would've outscored Fernandez too.

3- Starting with the last sentence and going backwards you are really really overrating Plushenko's 2012 skate compared to past IJS skates. It was a very good skate but hardly a new skater. LOL! Every single element of that skate in 2012 had been seen before. Maybe because of lack of international coverage you didn't get the opinions you usually hear of Plushenko's skating and subsequently internalize them as fact. Plushenko really does not have "basic stroking" between the jumps. It is not. That is not really accurate in portraying the changes of direction in skating and different maneuvers he does while not being Inman/Nichol transitions between jumps hardly qualify as "basic stroking." That is just incorrect.
 

LRK

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
Hah I assumed that was the implication, but you could also argue that because his skating/PCS isn't up to par (while improved) on the rest of the field, they have a fall cushion on him but not the other way around. ;) As for him never falling, I know he was injured at Euros but at Japan Open he also fell. I'm curious as to how consistent he'll be after surgery and getting his jumps back (I'm a bit more skeptical than 2010, but still hope he does recover).

You could assume that - but then, I presume you aren't really suggesting that Plushy doesn't have a "fall cushion" on ANYBODY? :) Plus, what I did mean did cross your mind - and those of others - so "my work here is done". :) Anyway, as a general observation, I find that only Chan's prowess seems to be counted in how many falls he has on other skaters. Does Hanyu have a "fall cushion" on Fernandez? How many falls does Takahashi have on Brian? It seems that only Chan is actually COUNTED ON to fall - by his very own fans, no less! Of course Plushy has fallen - and may do so again. I doubt there are very many who actually COUNT ON his doing so, however - and, I think you will agree, that that is a reputation he has earned - fair & square!
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
In the Lp I was in the 99th row, Plushenko looked like a fly on the ice and yet I remember his skate like it was the first time watching figure skating, the personality and energy he produced were amazing and there was a wow in the air. If he can ever skate again I wish for him to have this skate at Sochi even if he doesnt win anything, and btw with this skate I believe he could have medal to this years Euros and Worlds.His pcs last year were fine, 88+ is not that low.

That is the factor that people overlook when they take a magnifying glass to the protocols. Plushenko's presence on the ice sweeps all before it. When you see him complete live, in the warm-ups you don't even notice that anyone else is out there. :)
 

plushyfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Country
Hungary
Titles don't mean everything. Janet Lynn and Toller Cranston never won Worlds, but their interpretation and artistry and skating skills are some of the best ever.

Sorry, I never heard of him before I came here, despite I'm not too young. This is true a canadian point of view, again.

________________



I'm sure you undersetimate Plushy. But I just want to say the SS and TR also aren't everything. Plushy has effect on people, read it:
ONLY ONE WORD: PLUSHENKO

I tried in these days to find the right way to express how I felt but I always think to be trivial, repetitive,maybe because there have not been invented yet words to express for real the type of emotion that Evgeni Plushenko was capable to gift us all.

Evgeni has always made me happy. Every time I see him down on the ice skating, no matter if for a show or for a training, I experience a feeling of absolute harmony. But this was my first time in a competition with the presence of Evgeni, and was a long-cherished desire to be able to applaud him during a comp, be there to suffer, to wait, to exult. Never before like this particular time I realized that Evgeni has something more, a special indefinable “something” that can not be defined with only the talent, technique, even with artistic expression. Evgeni is will to succeed even when the obstacles seem too high, is the belief in himself without being let down by hasty or negative judgments, is the determination to face with courage the tests, the humility to make it even starting all over again.

Evgeni Plushenko in the European championships started from the qualification rounds, the skater who won everything put himself back into the sport from the lowest level, beginning with the first group. I arrived in Sheffield running without breathing just in time for the short program, with Elisabetta and Consuelo we crossed our fingers to be able to catch all flights and train transfers and at the end, when we finally entered the arena the first athlete of the first group was finishing his program. Just in time to sit back and to actually realize where are we and the heart starts beating furiously... Here we are, it's his turn to skate and my hands squeeze Elisabetta's one stronlgy. Triple toeloop triple toeloop combination, and the program goes on easily,with intensity, then a beautiful triple axel, the refined and elegant step sequence and Evgeni ends his routine while I still do not realize that it actually happened, I made it, I'm here! He didn't perform the quadruple toe-loop, but his followers are conscious that Evgeni is not in good shape. The left knee still hurts very much, and it's gonna be back to the hospital for another surgery soon. The only fact of his presence here is kind of a miracle, is the result of his steadfast determination. He finished the short program in second place,who did better than him was only Artur Gachinski, sharing an intense and well executed program. The following day we go to watch the practice, and Evgeni is really focused, he enters into the ice rink, begins to warm-up, try a few jumps. Then Mishin, from outside the ice, he raises his hand, waving his 4 fingers ... that's an indication to try the quad. Elisabetta understands the signal and make us to notice that so we are anxiously awaiting. Here is the preparation and the jump and the fast rotation, not a perfect landing, the fall. We tremble but Evgeni gets up quickly, takes up speed again and within seconds after he lands right in front of us a beautiful quad toe loop, and then one more, in combination with a triple toe-loop and again a beautiful triple axel. I reach the stars for happiness I feel in my heart that Evgeni will give us another demonstration of his greatness as an athlete during the free program, erasing in a minute, without too many words, doubts and criticisms that accompanied the last period of his career when heaters said: he is not gonna make it, he is too old than his opponents, he is gonna fail to catch up with the new regulations, he has no transitions skills and he is no longer as fast as he was in the past... I have always believed in him, because I am firmly convinced that Evgeni has a strong self confidence and never gives up. Everybody should be aware of it right now, after many years of career and many titles he won, but maybe someone needs one more demonstration about who is Plushenko.

Saturday morning at 6:30 a.m. we are on the supertram that brings us to the arena. We go inside,in the air spreads the music program of one of the competing athletes. Our heart is flooded with emotion, we sit in the bleachers close to the rink and after a while Evgeni takes the ice: he wears a brand new costume, black, elegant, his face is serious, focused, we feel the tension for the cometition just like he does, because this is a turning point and a confirmation for him. Some laps around the rink, some jumps. We observe him in silence, quivering of his own emotions ... in a few hours on freeskate we will know if our feelings are real: we see him ready and truly motivated. At the end of the practice session he stopped for a moment staring at the ice, immersed in thoughts that maybe we can imagine... And finally, the competition begins, athletes succeed one by one, we applaud, we participate, but our minds and our hearts are all addressed to him. Here he is warming up outside the ice rink, my hands tight to Consuelo and Elisabetta, the heartbeat accelerated. The music begins as well as the magic. First jump, a perfect quadruple we scream all together, and immediately after a beautiful triple axel followed by a triple toeloop. The excitement never seems to end. These are the longest four and a half minutes I've ever experienced. Evgeni skates easily gifting us a jump after another with a confidence that leaves us breathless. The song is in its own strings, a passionate tango, burning just like his sight which catches all the arena's attention to him. The circular step sequence is so beautiful that my eyes fill with tears of emotion, but I have no time because the program is going forward, strong and fast ending in a thrilling finale in which we see all his grit, his desire to be there to make only one thing: winning. The arena is all standing up to cheer him. This is the establishment of a record that nobody can take him away. We have not seen the scores yet, but for us, for every person inside the arena, Evgeni is the winner.

What can I say? There is no need of scores – stellar, by the way - to make clear of what was this competition, and no doubts about who is Plushenko. So I steal the definition of him made by an old man met in the elevator of the hotel,who was listening me talking about Evgeni and who said smiling at me:"Only one word: Plushenko"

Thank you Evgeni.

N.B. Thanks to Elisabetta, Consuelo and Sara with whom I shared this extraordinary adventure.
 

plushyfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Country
Hungary
Plushyfan, from a fan's perspective, his programs will always be perfect to you and that's totally fine to admire him and think that of him... but from a technical skating perspective, most of Plushenko's career had a lot to be desired. In 2012, for the first time I started to appreciate his actual SKATING, and not just jumping. Prior to that, he was a jumping machine with moments of over the top interpretation. That link at the top of the page shows he's certainly capable of subtley and fluidity, unlike previous years. It does bode well for future performances. Plushenko's 2012 Euros LP scored higher PCS and yet wasn't as clean as his 2010 Olympics LP. To me that shows that at least the judges are crediting him for improving.


Hm. I became of his fan because of his skating and programs, not vice versa, so I love his programs because I'm his fan. :confused:

"My guess is that in the past two years, he's come to a realisation that he really needs a program if he's going to still be competitive."

Sorry, you are a little bit cocky, because many people adore Plushy's old programs, do you think they are blind or they have absolutely no taste? You are the only one who knows what choreography is good? For example the Moonlight Sonata (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPLHGSA6cos) is a masterpiece, Bolero is so exciting, Adagio and the Nijinsky are pure magic, and so on.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Hm. I became of his fan because of his skating and programs, not vice versa, so I love his programs because I'm his fan. :confused:

"My guess is that in the past two years, he's come to a realisation that he really needs a program if he's going to still be competitive."

Sorry, you are a little bit cocky, because many people adore Plushy's old programs, do you think they are blind or they have absolutely no taste? You are the only one who knows what choreography is good? For example the Moonlight Sonata (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPLHGSA6cos) is a mesterpiece, Bolero is so exciting, Adagio and the Nijinsky are pure magic, and so on.

No I'm saying that his fans appreciate the programs for the performance and the great jumping. But if you look at the actual content of his past programs, from a technical skating standpoint, there is much to be desired. For example, in his 2006/2010 Olympic LPs, those jumps he does at the beginning are fantastic but choreographically there is absolutely nothing leading up to the first quad and nothing in between the first three jumps (not an opinion, a fact). That's not good choreography, even if one acknowledges the good jumping. As for the rest of the program, it's still from a technical skating perspective not much between the jumps and a lot of two-footed skating. It's performed well and the jumps are executed well, but he's pretty much skating from jump to jump and then stopping and showing emotion, and then skating into his jumps, and then showing emotion. It's not consistent. The overall performance is good because it's clean, he commands the ice well, and his footwork sequences are smartly placed (however, doing a fast footwork at the end doesn't negate the lack of choreography between the jumps prior to that).

As for the Moonlight Sonata, again, it is well performed, very well jumped, and had nice moments in the footwork (expression-wise, it's also one of his better SPs). But there's also a lot of breaks, slow spins, and two footed skating. One can appreciate the program as a whole and consider it a masterpiece if you will, but when you get into the specific, technical aspects of the program, it's not that great. As a comparison, Daisuke Takahashi's Moonlight Sonata SP http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FchiPNpBNYw is more complex and intricate in its choreography (even if it's not artistically what Daisuke's capable of). Considering his other programs as highly as you do is your opinion (and many others' opinions too) which you're totally entitled to. I wasn't saying you had no taste or only I know what good choreography looks like (but choreography is different from expression, performance and interpretation, hence why Plushenko's perfect 2010 Olympic LP only got 5th place in Choreography from the judges). You find his programs magical because of the aura he's able to create, and his excellent jumping, and his expression, and that's fine. As somebody who appreciates the sport aspect of figure skating, I totally love Plushenko's programs because they're technically brilliant... but the skating side of me just doesn't enjoy the program itself aside from the jumping, and that's just a different opinion, which I'm totally entitled to.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Like performance doesn't involve choreography? This is too dumb. Everyone is apparently just stupid and the judges that gave bin 6.0 are stupid and the fans are stupid and the judges again in pcs are stupid. Yes he got 5 in Vancouver that also is something. Takahashi and lambiel and others were judged to have better programs in choreo but that is radically radically different from you notion of no Choreo or crap choreo. Don't tell me why I'm a fan of someone. You are so presumptuous and have posted the worst kind of crap in this thread about why people are fans of plushenko. You're just the worst in this thread in presumptuousness and knowing it all and having all the right standards and his high pcs and 6.0 marks in the second mark are just a jump bonus and a performance bonus. I like the choreo that opens tango free skate 2010 a lot. You know nothing about why I like plushenko and choose to say I is all jumps! No that is a lie.
 

ciocio

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 27, 2010
I hate when people act like Plushenko is my brother/boyfriend/cousin, etc and that´s why I like him. I´m enjoying his skating since ´90s and I saw him once, last year. I know his programs could be better, sometimes I´ve been disappointed too but c´mon, a lot of his fans don´t even know the name of the jumps, or how a quad looks like...
 

let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
Hip thrusts are something Plushenko deliberately incorporates into his choreography that (in mine, and others', opinions) adversely affects the character/interpretation of the program. If a skater falls it is an error that affects the program, but it's not like they're intentionally doing it (considering Yuzuru, Chan, Fernandez, Takahashi, and Plushenko have all fallen). As for robot-like skating that is your opinion of Chan's skating...
His hip thrusts are something that actually effects the character of his program perfectly well. Maybe because his hips are not fat enough. Or because they are off-ice and not on ice zamboni-ing the surface multiple times. No one cares if Chan falls unintentionally or thinking that it doesn't matter if he falls or not since his shameless score is always granted. Falls always ruin the programs and therefore Chan's repetitive wins with multiple falls are illegitimate. The part in bolds is a lie of your desperate one because on this list only Chan is the one who has fallen multiple times and still won over a better skated guy. The part in italics is classic double standards of Chan ubers: when they say, they say "in mine, and others, opinions". When someone else says, they say it's "your opinion," which is a lie as well in this particular case. Multiple posts of various posters in the Edge and Competitions threads is an evidence that Chan ubers traditionally ignore. Too much lies. Pathetic trolling. I want something more professionally done. :biggrin:
from a technical skating standpoint, there is much to be desired.
What an irony to hear that from Chanboni advocates. :laugh:
Everyone is apparently just stupid and the judges that gave bin 6.0 are stupid and the fans are stupid and the judges again in pcs are stupid.
"Stupid" is everyone who is not in Chan league!!! That's why it's Patrick's favourite word!

On a serious note, ironically Stupids are the one who maniacally defend Chan's wins and bash Plu for that because it only provokes the opposite reaction and results from the online public. Maybe CSG is actualy on RusFed payroll? :hb: Pissev as always failed the personnel. :disapp:
 

bestskate8

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
He was on Fashion on ice in 2006, Tylenol skating and Gymnastic spectacular in 2007, COI in 2008. And he was invited to a show in december of 2010, San Antonio, but he didn't go.

Three times for 10 years, not much a? What wrong with this picture :laugh:

When did I say that? I said nothing about the NA style of skating being more artistic or more complex in my original post -- I said that NA style is more subtle and Euro style is more theatrical, as a general statement. Obviously skaters like Fernandez can reel in the theatrics but still be artistic, but Europe has always been known as more dramatic.?

I disagree, and claimimg subtle is more artistic is pathetic.

I have watched his FS at Russian nationals (and Euros 2012) and acknowledged how great an improvement it was compared to his past. Plushenko 2012 has certainly surpassed Plushenko 2010, but I would be curious as to what "many areas" you think Plushenko has surpassed Chan, other than consistency which was always better than Chan's (and any other post-IJS skater, for that matter). Chan's choreography, transitions, and skating skills are tangible criteria that are certainly better, but subjective criteria-wise, in my opinion, Chan's interpretation/musicality is better, not to mention Chan attempts greater difficulty. Not to say Plushenko hasn't greatly improved those areas than before, but IMO he hasn't surpassed Chan or Takahashi, and in many ways has yet to surpass newer skaters like Fernandez and Hanyu with regards to choreography and transitions and difficulty. ?

What can I say, sometimes hate makes people blind. But good news, people who don't hate Plushenko as you do, and NOT blind.
Do you really believe in what you just said, then may be you need to watch Plushenko more. :laugh:
But it is good to understand "subjective criteria-wise"

Also when you say 2013 Chan, I'm guessing you'll pick and choose where Chan did technically poorly like Worlds and WTT, without regarding competitions where he did well like his SP at Worlds or his LP at Rostelcom, right? It would be like saying Plushenko did well at RN so he's surpassed Takahashi who had a bad Worlds/4CC?
Chan 2013, is Chan now.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
1-Why? That is basically all Plushenko was doing by what you write. What about Goebel Vs. Plushenko 2003?

2-In PCS Fernandez has surprassed Plushenko? The last time they went head to head in FS it was 2012 and Fernandez was just as much of a frotrunner as he was in 2013 and Fernandez bombed. I don't have any doubts that if Plushenko skated the way he did against the way Fernandez skated PLushenko would've outscored Fernandez too.

Plushenko really does not have "basic stroking" between the jumps. It is not. That is not really accurate in portraying the changes of direction in skating and different maneuvers he does while not being Inman/Nichol transitions between jumps hardly qualify as "basic stroking." That is just incorrect.

1. 2003 could have gone either way (IMO, I thought it should have gone to Goebel who had a better program in terms of complexity, even if Plushenko was more expressive... but that touchdown on the loop cost him the gold). I said Plushenko's strength was his technical skating -- he was more artistic than Li/Goebel/Stojko, but his actual complexity/difficulty of skating was less than Lambiel/Takahashi/Buttle/Chan/Yagudin, etc. At that time, he certainly wasn't the most "balanced" skater out there.

2. The last time they went head to head in an SP was in 2013, Fernandez outscored Plushenko in PCS (more recent than the time you said). ;) If you think Fernandez was just as much of a front runner in 2013, when in 2013 his PCS was much better and he had three quads, and he placed 3rd in the World (vs. 9th in 2012) and won Europeans (vs. 6th in 2012) then you're giving 2012 Fernandez far too much credit. Buttle beat Plushenko at the Japan Open, so are we to assume Buttle's better than Plushenko given their most recent head to head?

3. As for his programs in the past having just basic stroking, look at the first minute of his Olympic 2006 LP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21woRiBqrks and the first minute of his 2010 Olympic LP http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtY1CuAbLgs&t=1m (I don't think I can recall any program with 4 jumping passes in the first minute). And as for changes in direction, in his 2006 LP he strokes clockwise exactly ONCE (from 1:52 to 1:57) and in his 2010 LP he strokes clockwise exactly ONCE (2:33-2:37) and the vast majority of that is backwards stroking... five seconds in a 4.5 minute program. Again, his 2012 LP is much more improved in terms of in betweens and variety of skating but particularly from 2004 to 2010, his focus was clearly on the jumps and not intricate or complex skating between them.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Chan 2013, is Chan now.

I thought you were referring to his 2012-2013 season (where he had good performances). Saying Chan is defined by who he has been in 2013 (two competitions) is like saying Hanyu should be defined by his poor FS at 4CC and poor Worlds. And if we take Plushenko's most recent performances, every seems to be using Euro 2012 as a reference, but since Japan Open was more recent, shouldn't that be considered more than his Euros 2012 LP? It's a double standard to use skaters' past good performances as representations of their current state, and then for other skaters use their poor recent performances as representative of their current state.

On the subject of fall cushion, Chan does have a fall cushion but people think it's 4-5 falls inherently, without realising that his margin for error in the FS is mitigated by the excellent SPs he's been having which are creating that cushion. Of course, people really just look at the freeskate, right?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Sorry, I never heard of him (Toller Cranston) before I came here, despite I'm not too young. This is true a Canadian point of view, again.

Toller Cranston is an acquired taste. I think he has more admirers now than he did when he was competing. Back then he was too avant-garde. People didn't quite "get" his "artistry" and just thought that he was weird. Nowadays people say that he was ahead of his time (although I do not know any current skater who consciously models his skating after Cranston's).

To me, the contrast with Janet Lynn could not be more stark. Lynn was the very definition of classical.

I tried in these days to find the right way to express how I felt but I always think to be trivial, repetitive,maybe because there have not been invented yet words to express for real the type of emotion that Evgeni Plushenko was capable to gift us all.

Evgeni has always made me happy. Every time I see him down on the ice skating, no matter if for a show or for a training, I experience a feeling of absolute harmony. But this was my first time in a competition with the presence of Evgeni, and was a long-cherished desire to be able to applaud him during a comp, be there to suffer, to wait, to exult. Never before like this particular time I realized that Evgeni has something more, a special indefinable “something” that can not be defined with only the talent, technique, even with artistic expression. Evgeni is will to succeed even when the obstacles seem too high, is the belief in himself without being let down by hasty or negative judgments, is the determination to face with courage the tests, the humility to make it even starting all over again.

:rock: :love: And that's what figure skating is all about. My wish for all skating fans is that they get to experience this sort of emotion when their guy or gal takes the ice. (Somehow, analyzing protocols does not give me the same feeling. :laugh: )

I am going to copy your post and publish it as my own, only with Michelle Kwan substituted for Plushenko. :)
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
^ I had met this italian lady who wrote the text and she speaks in reality the same way, very romantique :)
The event in the elevator did happen in reality so the Mr might have said instead, one word, Kwan:biggrin:

.
I hate when people act like Plushenko is my brother/boyfriend/cousin, etc and that´s why I like him. I´m enjoying his skating since ´90s and I saw him once, last year.

Plushy must have A LOT of cousins then ;)
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
On the subject of fall cushion, Chan does have a fall cushion but people think it's 4-5 falls inherently, without realising that his margin for error in the FS is mitigated by the excellent SPs he's been having which are creating that cushion. Of course, people really just look at the freeskate, right?

For me, it is nostalgia for the good old days. I know it's a new world (Golda), but I don't have to like it. ;)

Under ordinal judging you had to skate two excellent programs to win a major championship. It was not absolutely impossible to win with a fall, but it was not common. If you skated a clean short, good enough for third place of higher, that earned you the privilege of "going for the gold, do or die," in the long program. This is a very satisfying format for an athletic competition, IMHO.
 

bestskate8

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Plushyfan, from a fan's perspective, his programs will always be perfect to you and that's totally fine to admire him and think that of him... but from a technical skating perspective, most of Plushenko's career had a lot to be desired. In 2012, for the first time I started to appreciate his actual SKATING, and not just jumping. Prior to that, he was a jumping machine with moments of over the top interpretation. That link at the top of the page shows he's certainly capable of subtley and fluidity, unlike previous years. It does bode well for future performances. Plushenko's 2012 Euros LP scored higher PCS and yet wasn't as clean as his 2010 Olympics LP. To me that shows that at least the judges are crediting him for improving.



Sorry, I should have guessed that you were referring to 2006 when you sandwich that statement in between two statements about Euros 2012 and make no mention of 2006. :rolleye:

I didn't say he's untalented in SS, CH, IN... I said he's inferior in those departments compared to other skaters (Lambiel, Takahashi, Chan)... and he got his World titles and Olympic medals primarily on the basis of his strong jumping ability (his 2006 Olympic LP was practically barren choreography-wise and was just a jump fest, with nobody else in the field coming even close to technically matching his difficulty or his level of clean programs). Euros 2012 shows he's capable of better artistry but if we're talking what he's done most of his career, it's been jumping. I mean, how would you compare his 2006 Olympic gold LP to his 2012 Euros gold LP? My guess is that in the past two years, he's come to a realisation that he really needs a program if he's going to still be competitive.

And, you took a competition where Fernandez skated poorly to prove your point. It would be as inaccurate as saying Buttle beating Plushenko at the Japan Open where they actually competed against each other in SP and LP means that Buttle's better than Plushenko. It would be like saying Ten has better choreography and interpretation than Takahashi because at their most recent head-to-head competition, Ten thoroughly outscored Takahashi overall and in several PCS areas in the FS... but we all know Takahashi performed poorly and has better CH/IN than most if not all of the field. .

May be Chan fans should learn to speak for themselves and not for everybody. I don’t see Ten is worst then Takahashi or Chan in CH/IN.

If you take their best competitions, Fernandez handily wins. Even if Plushenko weren't injured and skated like he did at Euros 2012 (his personal best) at Euros 2013 he still would have most likely lost to Fernandez.

Final and latest results only matters when skaters compete head to head, Ten was better then Fernandez, Takahashi, Hanyu and Chan at Worlds 2013. It is huge advantage heading to Oly 2014.
As of today Plushenko is better then Chan according to the results from Oly 2010. It is a fact and end of the story.
 

bestskate8

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
And I find it interesting how often people say that Chan is so-and-so many falls better than such-and-such. How come no one seems to compare Plushy in how many falls he has on other skaters. Why is that? Hmmmm....

That is not true. I said before Plushenko has advantage over anybody with two mistakes.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Final and latest results only matters when skaters compete head to head, Ten was better then Fernandez, Takahashi, Hanyu and Chan at Worlds 2013. It is huge advantage heading to Oly 2014.
As of today Plushenko is better then Chan according to the results from Oly 2010. It is a fact and end of the story.

Okay, so until the next time they compete against each other we can assume that Jeffrey Buttle is better than Plushenko, based on their most recent head to head at Japan Open 2012.
 
Top