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Thread: Can Evgeni Plushenko win the 2014 Olympic title?

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    Case in point. So, two like sentences but someow only yours is the one that is meaninful. That is precisely what I am talking about. You think only you represent "meanigful". It's stupid enough to use biased views then constantly call them "meaningful"!
    Hip thrusts are something Plushenko deliberately incorporates into his choreography that (in mine, and others', opinions) adversely affects the character/interpretation of the program. If a skater falls it is an error that affects the program, but it's not like they're intentionally doing it (considering Yuzuru, Chan, Fernandez, Takahashi, and Plushenko have all fallen). As for robot-like skating that is your opinion of Chan's skating...

    I think robot-like would be something more like railing off three jumping passes back-to back-to back with just a bit of basic stroking to gather speed and zero choreography between them (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21woRiBqrks).

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Hip thrusts are something Plushenko deliberately incorporates into his choreography that (in mine, and others', opinions) adversely affects the character/interpretation of the program. If a skater falls it is an error that affects the program, but it's not like they're intentionally doing it (considering Yuzuru, Chan, Fernandez, Takahashi, and Plushenko have all fallen). As for robot-like skating that is your opinion of Chan's skating... I think robot-like would be something more like railing off three jumping passes back-to back-to back with just a bit of basic stroking to gather speed and practically zero choreography between them.
    The hip thrusts, as you said, were in his two competitive programs, in 2001 Bolero SP and in 2010 Tango Amore, is not very common. Right? On the shows that is very popular.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    Case in point. So, two like sentences but someow only yours is the one that is meaninful. That is precisely what I am talking about. You think only you represent "meanigful". It's stupid enough to use biased views then constantly call them "meaningful"!


    Chan fans are so alike. Zzzz..

    Still no newly-brand trolling? For an off-season I am expecting more creativity that repeatedly rant about Vancouver-whatever in multiple Plu threads.
    If in Plushy's program will be less TR-I'm sure-, like in Chan's program, they will say: there is NO TR!

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    The hip thrusts, as you said, were in his two competitive programs, in 2001 Bolero SP and in 2010 Tango Amore, is not very common. Right? On the shows that is very popular.
    Hah, I actually love the hip thrusts in the shows and programs where it's appropriate... e.g. Sex Bomb.

    But in the competitions I think he tends to get a little too flirty/showy with the audience and judges (it's not just hip thrusts, it's also winking, finger waving and shoulder shimmying like his 2001 LP, etc.) for my tastes -- and it's even more emphasized by him not really using his arms or expressing himself when stroking around into elements (like he has an all-business and all-performance switch).

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Hip thrusts are something Plushenko deliberately incorporates into his choreography that (in mine, and others', opinions) adversely affects the character/interpretation of the program. If a skater falls it is an error that affects the program, but it's not like they're intentionally doing it (considering Yuzuru, Chan, Fernandez, Takahashi, and Plushenko have all fallen). As for robot-like skating that is your opinion of Chan's skating... I think robot-like would be something more like railing off three jumping passes back-to back-to back with just a bit of basic stroking to gather speed and practically zero choreography between them.
    If you only focus on Plushenko's hip thrusts, you should not blame other people focus on Chan's falls. You see only what you want to see, even imaginary. Like plushyfan said, Plushenko only did hip thrusting in competition programs two times (actually his initial version of Bolero did not have that movement, but in his WORLDs performance, he put it in (I guess it is kind of try to please NA audience. He mentioned in his book about different interpretation when facing different audience)), the second time is Tango Amore which is meant to be seductive and sexy.

    I once watched one of his practice video without any jumps, he was just quietly skating along the music, it is really nice to watch, simply beautiful. So I am sure if he entered a competition where no jumps are allowed, he would still produce beautiful programs.

    You can insist on your opinion, but just remind you that you cannot represent other people's opinion then act like what you said is the only fact/truth/rules.

    Your opinion on aesthetic taste is interesting, Plushenko is very popular in Europe and Asia (just look at the response he got in the shows), and he was very popular in NA when he was young (by then he joined in many NA shows). So probably your opinion of how NA audience viewing Plushenko's skating is also just your opinions (certainly there will be some people from NA agree with you, especially people hanging around here, but to say that is for whole NA audience, I do not think so).

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Hah, I actually love the hip thrusts in the shows and programs where it's appropriate... e.g. Sex Bomb.

    But in the competitions I think he tends to get a little too flirty/showy with the audience and judges (it's not just hip thrusts, it's also winking, finger waving and shoulder shimmying like his 2001 LP, etc.) for my tastes -- and it's even more emphasized by him not really using his arms or expressing himself when stroking around into elements (like he has an all-business and all-performance switch).
    Too flirty?? No,I think he is original. I didn't understand "shoulder shimmying like his 2001 LP" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PWM2NESsGw Is that what you think at 1:37?

    I know it was a gala, but do you think any other skaters would venture to do? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UClulQ0Uo7I at 2' 38" Kiss of Tosca.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by yaya124 View Post
    If you only focus on Plushenko's hip thrusts, you should not blame other people focus on Chan's falls. You see only what you want to see, even imaginary. Like plushyfan said, Plushenko only did hip thrusting in competition programs two times (actually his initial version of Bolero did not have that movement, but in his WORLDs performance, he put it in (I guess it is kind of try to please NA audience. He mentioned in his book about different interpretation when facing different audience)), the second time is Tango Amore which is meant to be seductive and sexy.

    I once watched one of his practice video without any jumps, he was just quietly skating along the music, it is really nice to watch, simply beautiful. So I am sure if he entered a competition where no jumps are allowed, he would still produce beautiful programs.

    You can insist on your opinion, but just remind you that you cannot represent other people's opinion then act like what you said is the only fact/truth/rules.

    Your opinion on aesthetic taste is interesting, Plushenko is very popular in Europe and Asia (just look at the response he got in the shows), and he was very popular in NA when he was young (by then he joined in many NA shows). So probably your opinion of how NA audience viewing Plushenko's skating is also just your opinions (certainly there will be some people from NA agree with you, especially people hanging around here, but to say that is for whole NA audience, I do not think so).
    My comments about audiences are obviously just opinion... just like there are those who think Plushenko/Chan is a lovely skater and those who think he's an awful skater. NA audiences love the sport aspect of figure skating and Plushenko was indeed very popular because he's able to jump and consistently at that. But I've more than one conversation with different spectators (skating and non-skating fans) who absolutely hate his flamboyant arms and attempts to be sexy. Hip thrusts are sexy, but there's nothing "Tango" about them (especially when a tango is meant to look powerful and sophisticated, hip thrusts just look hokey). Same with his winking and whisper fingers at the judges and audience -- it doesn't match the character of the program.

    As for this with respect to falls from Chan and other skaters who have fallen (i.e. all of them), I'll say again that those are unintentional disruptions and are different than actual intentional choreography that goes against the feel/persona/character of a program.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    Yes, I agree. I love his programs, like many others. But yes, those programs were always very different from the North American perception. I really believe that the North- American style is not the only one good style.
    I want to see Plushenko on the ice, who is a little bit different from the others, who has kept the style and personality, but adapted to the new requirements as well. I do not want to see second-third Chan, and so on. This is very difficult. Look at Fernandez, Ten they skate in totally North-American style....

    And is he only a jumper? Sometimes I think, the North-American people don't know or don't remember his skating. They know the Godfather program in Torino, and his Tango Amore program in 2010, but no more, and they repeat what they read or heard somewhere.

    I can't wait this summer!
    Very true. There is just nothing that can be done to say plushenko had any talent to north Americans! You can go everywhere else in the world and they will say plushenko is very talented but not north America.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yaya124 View Post
    I am not a huge fan of his 2010's programs but I love almost all his previous programs. Only in certain people's eyes he is only a jumper.
    But I can see why saying he is just a jumper is convenient especially now: before the injury, people can conveniently say he won because of his consistent jumps. At the same time forming the idea of "if he cannot jump well, he is just an average or even lower skater" in people's mind. Now he is injured, so probably he could not jump as well as before, hence he is merely an average skater now.

    Nevertheless, cannot wait for the summer to come so that we will know how well he recovers from the operation.

    You will be surprised, but those people never ever watch Plushenko skate, especially life. When was last time Plushenko was invited to skate life in NA? 2004? Forget about Oly 2010, its not affordable for many people. They didn't see him almost 10 years, but are always so knowledgeable about his artistic side, judging from top view camera angels.


    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    If he does 1 quad SP's and 1 or 2 quad LP's in both the team and Individual events I will be surprised! I just think he does quads in the individual event SP and LP. Only he will know how he feels after quads in Russian nationals and Europeans and then the team event and then the SP of the individual.

    Theoretically, he can skate similar to Euro 2012. QR like team event, somehow to warm up before individual event. His LP Euro 2012 was Olympic winning material PSC wise according to audience which was not from his home country. I’ve seen Plushenko skate life many times and this one was epic.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    Very true. There is just nothing that can be done to say plushenko had any talent to north Americans! You can go everywhere else in the world and they will say plushenko is very talented but not north America.
    I don't think anyone denies that Plushenko is talented. And in my opinion, his talents have predominantly been in jumping and performance moreso than skating skills, choreography and interpretation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I say he's a jumper because jumps are critical to his performance because his choreography or the intricacy of his programs (particularly in 2010 and prior to that) wasn't nearly the level of the other guys. At that time, if you took out the jumps there really wouldn't be a whole lot left in his programs choreography-wise (though some of his spins were good, and his energy in footwork sequences is great even if the footwork itself isn't particularly complex). Interpretation is up to some people... I agree that he's expressive, but I'm personally not a fan of the winks or hip thrusts -- it's excessive and "exhibition"y. I get he's playing to the audience, but stuff like that ruins the interpretation and character of the program.

    They'll remember his skating for its high difficulty and consistent jumping more than for its complexity/interpretation. Although certainly in places outside of North America his style would be appreciated more. At risk of sounding pretentious, I think North American audiences are more attuned to subtlety (which could also come across as safe or boring if it's too subtle), whereas European audiences are fans of flamboyance and theatrics (which could also come across as over the top).
    If you are really believe, as a fact, that NA style of skating is more artistic more complex and so on, then I MUST be Sophia Loren

    Why not move on from Plushenko 2010 to Plushenko THESE days and FIANALLY watch his recent skating at RN, shows and so on. You will be very surprised what you see. Plushenko is a quick learner and he surpassed already Chan 2013 in many areas, please watch him and witness it for yourself.

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by bestskate8 View Post
    1) If you are really believe, as a fact, that NA style of skating is more artistic more complex and so on, then I MUST be Sophia Loren

    Why not move on from Plushenko 2010 to Plushenko THESE days and FIANALLY watch his recent skating at RN, shows and so on. You will be very surprised what you see. Plushenko is a quick learner and he surpassed already Chan 2013 in many areas, please watch him and witness it for yourself.
    When did I say that? I said nothing about the NA style of skating being more artistic or more complex in my original post -- I said that NA style is more subtle and Euro style is more theatrical, as a general statement. Obviously skaters like Fernandez can reel in the theatrics but still be artistic, but Europe has always been known as more dramatic.

    I have watched his FS at Russian nationals (and Euros 2012) and acknowledged how great an improvement it was compared to his past. Plushenko 2012 has certainly surpassed Plushenko 2010, but I would be curious as to what "many areas" you think Plushenko has surpassed Chan, other than consistency which was always better than Chan's (and any other post-IJS skater, for that matter). Chan's choreography, transitions, and skating skills are tangible criteria that are certainly better, but subjective criteria-wise, in my opinion, Chan's interpretation/musicality is better, not to mention Chan attempts greater difficulty. Not to say Plushenko hasn't greatly improved those areas than before, but IMO he hasn't surpassed Chan or Takahashi, and in many ways has yet to surpass newer skaters like Fernandez and Hanyu with regards to choreography and transitions and difficulty.

    Also when you say 2013 Chan, I'm guessing you'll pick and choose where Chan did technically poorly like Worlds and WTT, without regarding competitions where he did well like his SP at Worlds or his LP at Rostelcom, right? It would be like saying Plushenko did well at RN so he's surpassed Takahashi who had a bad Worlds/4CC?

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I don't think anyone denies that Plushenko is talented. And in my opinion, his talents have predominantly been in jumping and performance moreso than skating skills, choreography and interpretation.
    He's got tons of talent in skating skills and choreo and interpretation. It's why he got not only 6.0 in presentation but also go high pcs in IJS. I know you think he deserved zeroes in pcs and o.o in presentstion but be got the total opposite that and got 6.0 but pre 8,s and 9's in choreo ss and int.

    Your belief is that Fernandez is far and away superior to what plushenko ever was is too out there. Hanyu to is alpacas apparently better than plushenko ever was! Amazing. Like really?

    In 2012 euros plushenko crushed Fernandez on everything. He has not competed against hanyu and maybe never will but I think most would agree plushenko has had a more impressive career than hanyu even if you would disagree and say hanyu is better than plushenko.

    Plushenko got level 4 step sequences which combines ss choreo and interpretation.

    If you think plushenko is so untalented and inferior in every way to hanyu and fernandez why don't you look at his euro 2012 performance even once!

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by bestskate8 View Post
    You will be surprised, but those people never ever watch Plushenko skate, especially life. When was last time Plushenko was invited to skate life in NA? 2004? Forget about Oly 2010, its not affordable for many people. They didn't see him almost 10 years, but are always so knowledgeable about his artistic side, judging from top view camera angels.
    He was on Fashion on ice in 2006, Tylenol skating and Gymnastic spectacular in 2007, COI in 2008. And he was invited to a show in december of 2010, San Antonio, but he didn't go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    He's got tons of talent in skating skills and choreo and interpretation. It's why he got not only 6.0 in presentation but also go high pcs in IJS. I know you think he deserved zeroes in pcs and o.o in presentstion but be got the total opposite that and got 6.0 but pre 8,s and 9's in choreo ss and int.

    Your belief is that Fernandez is far and away superior to what plushenko ever was is too out there. Hanyu to is alpacas apparently better than plushenko ever was! Amazing. Like really?

    In 2012 euros plushenko crushed Fernandez on everything. He has not competed against hanyu and maybe never will but I think most would agree plushenko has had a more impressive career than hanyu even if you would disagree and say hanyu is better than plushenko.

    Plushenko got level 4 step sequences which combines ss choreo and interpretation.

    If you think plushenko is so untalented and inferior in every way to hanyu and fernandez why don't you look at his euro 2012 performance even once!
    Stop saying I said (or assume that I think) things that I've never said. When did I say he deserved zeroes in PCS?

    I also didn't say Fernandez is superior to what Plushenko ever was, and I specified which ways I think he's superior to Plushenko (contrary to you saying I've said Plushenko is inferior in every way to Fernandez). And why are you using 2012 Euros as an example? With Fernandez's 2013 Euros performance he would have crushed Plushenko, injured or not... Fernandez's 2013 Euros LP scored 10 points higher than Plushenko at Euros 2012 (and his total, a personal best, was 13 points higher than Plushenko's personal best at Euros 2012... Hanyu's personal best also beats Plushenko's personal best from Euros 2012, by the way). I

    Also at Euros 2012 Plushenko got level 3's in both the SP and FS -- not level 4's as you just said. At Euros 2013, his step sequence was a level 2.

    Get your facts straight -- including your statements about what I have or haven't said.

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